Spider-Man: TAS "Secret Wars, Parts 1 - 3" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Stu]

Discuss this Spider-Man: The Animated Series three-part episode!

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Episode #61: Secret Wars Part 1: Arrival
Original Airdate - November 7 1997
Madame Web and the Beyonder transport Spider-Man to an alien planet where no evil exists. As a test, the Beyonder introduces evil into the planet and tasks Spider-Man with choosing a team of super-heroes to fight alongside him against the growing evil in the once peaceful planet.

Episode #62: Secret Wars Part 2: The Gauntlet Of The Red Skull
Original Airdate - November 14 1997
Spider-Man, along with Iron Man, Captain America, the Lizard and Storm teleport the Black Cat to the alien planet where she reveals her origin. As the villains grow stronger, Spider-Man and his new allies gather the rebels of the alien planet and prepare for an all out attack against the evil forces plaguing the planet!

Episode #63 :Secret Wars Part 3: Doom
Original Airdate - November 21 1997
Spider-Man and his newly formed team of heroes travel to New Latveria and find a civilization ruled by a just and fair Doctor Doom. While there, Doom offers Ben Grimm a device that allows him to switch from his Thing form to his human form and gains his trust. However, Reed is unconvinced and begins an attack against the Latverian ruler but is stopped by Doom's robots, and is held for treason along with the rest of the heroes. Left with no choice, Spider-Man and the Thing launch a campaign to free their friends only to find that Doom has gained new powers.. the Beyonder's!

Comments?

 

[Sketch]

I LOVED this arc! Sure it wasn't fantastic but I'm a sucker for cross-overs...

 

[Ssrn53]

Well, this particular storyline bothered me for these reasons:

1. Other than the name "secret wars" it bears little similarity to the comic mini series it was based on. Also it doesn't come close to the comic in terms of depth and writing quality. It didn't do the comic book justice. They should have called it something else other than secret wars.

2. Earth's heroes choose to follow Spider-man as their leader over the much more experienced and natural leader Capt. America. Yeah I know it's a Spiderman cartoon but Spidey is neither more experienced or a natural leader; so I found it downright unbelievable that they would choose to follow Spidey over Cap. If Cap wasn't there, Mr. Fantastic or Iron Man would still be better choices than Spidey for the same reasons. Cap could still have been the leader, and have Spidey kind of go off on his own at some later point to advance his storyline. Oh well.

 

[czyznyck99]

Part 2 was incredibly weak. It seemed more like a throwaway brawl than actually having meaning. Part 1 had too much talking without meaning, and Part 3 was too predictable. If this series actually had been a whole season, it would have great. But it wasn't.

Later.

 

[Digu Volz]

I remember this... it was alright, but, as already stated, it really wasn't anything like the Secret Wars and making it so Spider-centric was wrong, imo. Spidey didn't even really have that big of a part in Secret Wars anyway. Not to say that they didn't do a decent job with it, but, in my mind, why did they bother when there were plenty of other stories to adapt or create ?

 

[Fett One]

I thought this was an okay story line. My only complaints about it are:

1) They redesigned the Thing. This design looked horrible compared to his design in the Fantastic Four series. They should have also used the same VA from the Fantastic Four. I always thought that guy did a really good job.

2) When they had the mountain dropped on them they some how maricously got out from under it with no explaination of how they did it. Even if they couldn't show them getting out from under it because of the censors, they could have still explained how they got out.

 

[Sketch]

Actually all of the Fantastic Four reprised their roles EXCEPT Mr. Fantastic who was replaced most obviously by Cam Clark.

Do you guys know the real reason why Storm was the only X-Men in this? Because she was the only VA around the area. LOL, good old Marvel Studio's being lazy as usual.

 

[HellCat]

Actually all of the Fantastic Four reprised their roles EXCEPT Mr. Fantastic who was replaced most obviously by Cam Clark.

Do you guys know the real reason why Storm was the only X-Men in this? Because she was the only VA around the area. LOL, good old Marvel Studio's being lazy as usual.

I'm pretty sure only The Torch kept his VA, the 3 other members were changed.

 

[Stu]

Being that part 3 airs tomorrow (along with The Spot-ugh), I thought now would be a convineant time to add my comments.

First off, I'd have preferred it to be longer. I think this could have been a good 5 parter, but then again it was supposed to be longer before Hulk and She Hulk got canned. And again, the X-Men where supposed to have an episode in there somewhere, but that got lost due to FOX not wanting to fly in the VA in from Canada.

I really liked the beginning, with him picking his warriors. Overall, I liked his team. It was great seeing Iron Man again, in his bad ass Spider-Man design (where was Toy Biz when this episode aired, I am forced to ask?!!!!)

Even though there where so many characters, it was nice to see most of the hero's weren't just there. We had the Captain America/Black Cat angle, Iron Man and his power blacking out, the human side of The Lizard and the FF trying to find Doom.

Part 3 also had one of my favourite speeches from the show

DOOM: Who amongst you has ever wanted to give up thier superpowers?

SPIDER-MAN: I have, because I've learned, time and time again, with great power comes great responsilbilty.

Overall, it was good. I think it worked better than most team shows have (excluding X-Men).

****

 

[Weibart]

This morning, starting at 10:00am, ABC Family airs the entire 'Secret Wars' arc as a part of its Spideology marathon. There's plenty of good stuff going on in this episode, so please, have at it!

Comments?

 

[Chris Wood]

[Amazing Spidey]
Episode #61: Secret Wars Part 1: Arrival
Original Airdate - November 7 1997
Madame Web transports Spider-Man to a distant planetoid, where he meets the near-omnipotent being known as the Beyonder. Spider-Man must then select who he wants to lead into battle on a planet overrun by villians chosen by the Beyonder.

As other have pointed out, this sounds like a pretty loose adaptation of the comic. I don't recall Spider-man choosing the participants. Wasn't Captain America the leader?

Episode #62: Secret Wars Part 2: The Gauntlet Of The Red Skull
Original Airdate - November 14 1997
Spidey manages to transport the Black Cat to join his team against her wishes. As he leads Captain America, Iron Man, Cat and the Lizard in a back-door assault on the Red Skull's stronghold, Spidey learns a lot about leadership and a little more about himself.

The Red Skull? Was he even in the comic? I thought, er, what's his name, Molecule Man (?) was the biggest villain after Doom.

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Episode #63 :Secret Wars Part 3: Doom
Original Airdate - November 21 1997
As Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four prepare an assault on Doctor Doom's 'New Latveria,' they are shocked by what they find. Doom has created a veritable paradise within the walls of his kingdom, a refuge from the war-torn landscape outside. He has even given Ben Grimm a way to control his monstrous appearance. Can it be that Doom has truly changed? Or is there a sinister secret lurking just beneath the green grass of his pasteboard paradise?

What about Doom's battle with the Beyonder?

 

[Phrost]

2. Earth's heroes choose to follow Spider-man as their leader over the much more experienced and natural leader Capt. America. Yeah I know it's a Spiderman cartoon but Spidey is neither more experienced or a natural leader; so I found it downright unbelievable that they would choose to follow Spidey over Cap. If Cap wasn't there, Mr. Fantastic or Iron Man would still be better choices than Spidey for the same reasons. Cap could still have been the leader, and have Spidey kind of go off on his own at some later point to advance his storyline. Oh well.

I think that Spider-Man felt obligated to be their leader because he basically got all of the heroes into the whole war. Spider felt that it was his duty to take charge for his actions of bringing the heroes to the planet. Plus, he didnt' do such a bad job either.

 

[Stu]

Spider-Man was the leader because he was chosen by The Beyonder to be the leader. Why would any of the writers push thier own characters aside for some guest stars? It wouldn't make sense...it's Spider-Man's show, Spider-Man should be the leader. Simple.

I always thought the new Fantastic Four voices were weird, I know Semper hated the show, but the new cast sounded... wrong.

 

[JLU Dude]

I have to again, that Cam Clarke, Gail Matthius, and Patrick Pinney as Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, and Thing respectively sounded off. Frankly I prefer Beau Weaver, Lori Alan, and Chuck McCann from the 90s FF toon as those characters' VA. The latter three I listed being the ones I hear when I read the comics. Though, Tom Kane was excellent as Doctor Doom, again, just as I hear Weaver over Clarke for Reed, Alan over Mattius for Sue, and McCann over Pinney as Ben, I prefer Simon Templeman over Kane as Doom.

The Red Skull? Was he even in the comic? I thought, er, what's his name, Molecule Man (?) was the biggest villain after Doom.

The Red Skull is indeed in the comics. In the cartoon, he served his purpose much in the comics: Captain America's archenemy.

 

[Chris Wood]

Spider-Man was the leader because he was chosen by The Beyonder to be the leader. Why would any of the writers push thier own characters aside for some guest stars? It wouldn't make sense...it's Spider-Man's show, Spider-Man should be the leader. Simple.

OK, but that's not how it is in the original script.

The Red Skull is indeed in the comics. In the cartoon, he served his purpose much in the comics: Captain America's archenemy.

I'll have to go dig out my copy of Secret Wars as it's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure Red Skull isn't in it.

 

[handOFfate]

I know for a fact Red Skull wasn't in the comic version. Having no superpowers he wouldn't really have any purpose other than leader, which was already occupied by Doom.

Spider-Man really wasn't a big character in Secret Wars comic, although a very important thing happened to him (discovered, and wore, the venom symbiote for the first time). The comic focused heavily on Dr.Doom, Captain America, and Mr.Fantastic. Black Cat wasn't there, either. Lizard was initially on the side of the bad guys (although he later changes after meeting The Wasp and Klaw). Iron Man was Jim Rhodes (future War Machine), not Tony Stark. No Invisible Woman, only the other three.

I haven't seen the three-parter in forever. What villains were chosen by the Beyonder?

 

[Chris Wood]

Spider-Man really wasn't a big character in Secret Wars comic, although a very important thing happened to him (discovered, and wore, the venom symbiote for the first time). The comic focused heavily on Dr.Doom, Captain America, and Mr.Fantastic.

I think Spiderman played a fairly big role in the series. He is the Marvel poster boy after all. He wasn't the leader though that's for sure.

In the comic there's a lot of bickering amongst both teams over who should lead and whatnot. If I remember correctly there's a lot of mistrust between the mutants and the other heroes. Is this depicted on the show?

 

[Wayman Tisdale]

Well, this particular storyline bothered me for these reasons:

1. Other than the name "secret wars" it bears little similarity to the comic mini series it was based on. Also it doesn't come close to the comic in terms of depth and writing quality. It didn't do the comic book justice. They should have called it something else other than secret wars.

2. Earth's heroes choose to follow Spider-man as their leader over the much more experienced and natural leader Capt. America. Yeah I know it's a Spiderman cartoon but Spidey is neither more experienced or a natural leader; so I found it downright unbelievable that they would choose to follow Spidey over Cap. If Cap wasn't there, Mr. Fantastic or Iron Man would still be better choices than Spidey for the same reasons. Cap could still have been the leader, and have Spidey kind of go off on his own at some later point to advance his storyline. Oh well.

Totally agree, I have SO MANY PROBLEMS with this story arc, I don't where to start but I'll try, here goes:


Among the the many reasons I hated the Spider-Man Secret Wars storyline sooo much was:

1. CAPTAIN AMERICA was written really badly/wimpy. This is a VERY similar uninspired portrayal to the plethora of complaints you hear about Superman or Superwuss on Justice League in the first season. Not only the fact he was wussified but he was more watered down than a Planet Hollywood mixed drink in terms of screen time wise with the gaudy and unnecessary addition of Black Cat(They made Black Cat have the same abilities as Cap and waayy off the comics unnecessarily.). She was basically a super soldier serumed female Cap with catlike tendencies, PUKE!.

Considering myself to be a Captain America/Steve Rogers expert, Cap behaved WAAAAY too atypically off his usual, ultra-consistent indomitable spirit, focused, warrior self as he hit on Black Cat like he was Dan fricken Fielding from Night Court involved in this atrocious Markie Post/Harry Anderson/John Larroquette Spider-love triangle, INEXCUSABLY LAME! They never let him be the ultimate human fighting machine we all love so much(That goes for both Six Forgotten Warriors and Secret Wars.)! They never allowed him to grandstand to show off martial arts expertise and mow down the Red Skull's alien troops as he should always. This MAY be due to that hideous no punching rule in the series but I wouldn't give them too much credit plus there are million ways to write around that.

2. Spider-Man is ridiculously named leader of the group with THE leader of ALL leaders Captain America on board along with proven leaders Reed Richards and Iron-Man on hand??? That is THE MOST biased move I've ever seen favoring the titled character EVER in super hero animation history!

3. No Hulk. Lizard gets old after a few appearances and doesn't work as a hero for me.

4. ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for Black Cat and the Blade/Morbius cameos cluttering up the second episode(The Gauntlet of the Red Skull) and in Black Cat's case the whole storyline. After a while, I wondered why they didn't just call the whole Spider-Man series Spider and Cat, after her, what, 22 appearances. When I became privy to the notion they(John Semper and co) were doing a Secret Wars storyline THE LAST character I wanted to see at that point was Black Cat as she predictably went on to take screen time away from the other more capable and featured Marvel icon heroes(Cap, Storm, FF, and Iron-Man) that clearly everyone was tuning in to see and FOX had heavily promoted Secret Wars with those heroes in a montage. Black Cat was like the Hawkgirl of that storyline, no point or purpose whatsoever! Don't get me wrong, Black Cat is okay, she just has NO BUSINESS in a Secret Wars storyline at all.

5. WHY DIDN'T THEY USE BETTER AND MORE VILLIANS! OKAY Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Dr. Octopus fine but SMYTHE??? C'mon, it's supposed to be PURE evil where the hell is Carnage if not Venom to assume the Lizard role as the conflicted hero/villian. Bring in Rhino for pure muscle as well. And Kingpin, as often as they used him deserved to be there.

6. Couldn't have felt more rushed and needed at least two more installments to dish out proper screen time to each character but it written SOOO hideous I don't think it would've mattered.


I gave it a half star because there isn't lower available, PURE SPIDER-CRAP! This should have been released as a direct to DVD and not under the Spider-Man title to be given the respect it deserves as one of Marvel comics most renowned storylines ever. I never in my wildest dreams thought Secret Wars could be butchered so horribly.

 

[Antiyonder]

No Hulk. Lizard gets old after a few appearances and doesn't work as a hero for me.

The Incredible Hulk was airing with new episodes on UPN (a rival network). Do you think FOX wants to promote a show on a rival network? Though he and She-Hulk were planned to appear.

The Lizard was added, because of his Hulk type characteristic (Scientist turning into a green skinned/scaled creature).

ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for Black Cat and the Blade/Morbius cameos cluttering up the second episode(The Gauntlet of the Red Skull) and in Black Cat's case the whole storyline.

When The Secret Wars Arc was planned The Hulk, She-Hulk and The Entire X-Men were going to appear. I already mentioned why Hulk and She-Hulk were scrapped from the story. The X-Men cast were brought from Canada to LA to do the voice work for Mutant Agenda and Mutant's Revenge. The flight was expensive. The only reason Storm was still in the episode was that Iona Morris (Storm's original voice actress) was in LA at the time. The Black Cat and The Lizard's presence on Spidey's team was to make up for the heroes that didn't make it on the final draft.

The Secret Wars was going to be a 4 parter:
Chapter 1- Arrival
Chapter 2- (This episode would have centered around Spider-Man and The X-Men breaking into the base of Mr. Sinister. Spidey finds a temporary symbiote to use as a costume. It would end with Madame Web and The Beyonder doing their usual cryptic statements. Scripted, but never done since Storm was the only X-Men character around. DRG4 has the script for this lost episode.)
Chapter 3- The Gauntlet Of The Red Skull
Chapter 4- Doom

WHY DIDN'T THEY USE BETTER AND MORE VILLIANS! OKAY Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Dr. Octopus fine but SMYTHE??? C'mon, it's supposed to be PURE evil where the hell is Carnage if not Venom to assume the Lizard role as the conflicted hero/villian. Bring in Rhino for pure muscle as well. And Kingpin, as often as they used him deserved to be there.

If The Hulk was on Spidey's team, it's likely that The Lizard would have remained as the antagonist.

If The Entire X-Men had been on Spidey's team then Mr. Sinister would have been one of the chosen villains (Magneto was planned first, but said to be off limits, so Mr. Sinister was the chosen X-Villain).

This information is courtesy of DRG4 and his Spider-Man page.

 

[Stu]

Totally agree, I have SO MANY PROBLEMS with this story arc, I don't where to start but I'll try, here goes:


Among the the many reasons I hated the Spider-Man Secret Wars storyline sooo much was:

1. CAPTAIN AMERICA was written really badly/wimpy. This is a VERY similar uninspired portrayal to the plethora of complaints you hear about Superman or Superwuss on Justice League in the first season. Not only the fact he was wussified but he was more watered down than a Planet Hollywood mixed drink in terms of screen time wise with the gaudy and unnecessary addition of Black Cat(They made Black Cat have the same abilities as Cap and waayy off the comics unnecessarily.). She was basically a super soldier serumed female Cap with catlike tendencies, PUKE!.

Considering myself to be a Captain America/Steve Rogers expert, Cap behaved WAAAAY too atypically off his usual, ultra-consistent indomitable spirit, focused, warrior self as he hit on Black Cat like he was Dan fricken Fielding from Night Court involved in this atrocious Markie Post/Harry Anderson/John Larroquette Spider-love triangle, INEXCUSABLY LAME! They never let him be the ultimate human fighting machine we all love so much(That goes for both Six Forgotten Warriors and Secret Wars.)! They never allowed him to grandstand to show off martial arts expertise and mow down the Red Skull's alien troops as he should always. This MAY be due to that hideous no punching rule in the series but I wouldn't give them too much credit plus there are million ways to write around that.[/quote]

2. Spider-Man is ridiculously named leader of the group with THE leader of ALL leaders Captain America on board along with proven leaders Reed Richards and Iron-Man on hand??? That is THE MOST biased move I've ever seen favoring the titled character EVER in super hero animation history!

It's Spider-Man's show. If Iron Man was going to be the leader, it would have been shown on Iron Man. I thought Spidey fit the bill perfectly, as he's more of a loner than the rest of them, as he said in the actual story, he's never lead a boy scout group before. He see him grow as a leader, which, as Madame Web said, prepared him for his 'ultimate' battle with Spider-Carnage, because he had to lead all the other Spider-Men into battle.

3. No Hulk. Lizard gets old after a few appearances and doesn't work as a hero for me.

There was no way around this. The writers weren't allowed to use Hulk or She Hulk.

4. ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for Black Cat and the Blade/Morbius cameos cluttering up the second episode(The Gauntlet of the Red Skull) and in Black Cat's case the whole storyline. After a while, I wondered why they didn't just call the whole Spider-Man series Spider and Cat, after her, what, 22 appearances. When I became privy to the notion they(John Semper and co) were doing a Secret Wars storyline THE LAST character I wanted to see at that point was Black Cat as she predictably went on to take screen time away from the other more capable and featured Marvel icon heroes(Cap, Storm, FF, and Iron-Man) that clearly everyone was tuning in to see and FOX had heavily promoted Secret Wars with those heroes in a montage. Black Cat was like the Hawkgirl of that storyline, no point or purpose whatsoever! Don't get me wrong, Black Cat is okay, she just has NO BUSINESS in a Secret Wars storyline at all.

He wasn't sure what he was doing. He needed someone familiar to work with. Besides Iron Man, none of the other hero's where his friends. He'd never met the FF, got off to a rotten start with Storm when he met here, and Captain America...well, no doubt Spidey was a little intimated...in his eyes, Cap was a legend.

5. WHY DIDN'T THEY USE BETTER AND MORE VILLIANS! OKAY Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Dr. Octopus fine but SMYTHE??? C'mon, it's supposed to be PURE evil where the hell is Carnage if not Venom to assume the Lizard role as the conflicted hero/villian. Bring in Rhino for pure muscle as well. And Kingpin, as often as they used him deserved to be there.

I'd guess they used Spidey villians because it was Spideys show. I always thought the original Secret Wars from the comic had crappy villians, compared to the amount of hero's they had. Carnage shouldn't have been used, because it would have been too soon before seeing Spider-Carnage.

Smythe I'll agree on, he worked far better as a dude who created robots than a real supervillian.

I don't think they needed muscle in the episode. Kingpin works better as a crimelord than a real supervillian, IMO.

6. Couldn't have felt more rushed and needed at least two more installments to dish out proper screen time to each character but it written SOOO hideous I don't think it would've mattered.

I agree, it would have been great to see it last longer. But Spidey has never worked well on alien planets, etc, he's too down to earth. Ironically enough, he complains he's not a galaxy hopping hero in "Night Of The Lizard" [/quote]

I gave it a half star because there isn't lower available, PURE SPIDER-CRAP! This should have been released as a direct to DVD and not under the Spider-Man title to be given the respect it deserves as one of Marvel comics most renowned storylines ever. I never in my wildest dreams thought Secret Wars could be butchered so horribly.

I thought I should reply here, because you raised some very interesting points. A Secret Wars DTV would be cool...