"Superman Doomsday" Feature Talkback, Part II (Spoilers)

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Bird Boy

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Where were you the day Superman died?



Superman Doomsday

Release Date: September 18th, 2007

Story by: Duane Capizzi and Bruce Timm
Screenplay by: Duane Capizzi
Directed by: Bruce Timm, Lauren Montgomery and Brandon Vietti


Synopsis: The most shocking showdown in Superman history! When Lexcorp accidentally unearths the intergalactic serial killer Doomsday, Superman battles the creature head on in the fight of his life...literally. The world collectively mourns their fallen hero; humanity realizes it will never feel truly safe again. Superman's enemies rejoice all but Lex Luthor, who grieves the loss in his own demented manner, setting off a chilling chain of events that even he couldn't have foreseen. Inspired by the bestselling graphic novel of all time, DC Comics' The Death of Superman, this feature-length animated adventure boasts exciting action sequences that rivals anything you've ever seen starring the Man of Steel!

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Previous Discussion Threads
Superman Doomsday Feature Talkback (Spoilers), Part I

Related Threads:
-Superman Doomsday DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman Doomsday Soundtrack Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman/Doomsday Feature Review (Spoilers)
-Superman: The Death of Superman Classic Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman: World Without A Superman Classic Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman: The Return of Superman Classic Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman/Doomsday Graphic Novel Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman: The Death and Return of Superman Hardcover Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman: The Ultimate Collector's Edition DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-The Death and Return of Superman Classic Video Game Talkback (Spoilers)

Note: We appreciate and encourage discussion, but one-word/one-line posts are unnecessary. We'd like to see actual discussion and real comments. Please keep your posts the thoughtful, relevant and insightful. We will issue warnings if we believe it necessary. Keep all discussions ON-TOPIC.
 

Spider-Man

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I think the length of the movie really isn't an issue. Given the script what really could have been fleshed out more anyway? I understand that they could have adapted the comic book story in a more faithful manner but I never saw this as a straight of adaption. They simply used The Death of Superman comic story as a starting point and just ran from there with it. Nothing wrong with that at all I think. I still think it's a good movie but not the best. A good first attempt no doubt.
 

GWOtaku

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Personally, I'm still 100% behind my positive review--although I still mind the movie's few weak spots. I still think Jimmy got shafted, and the handling of Superman's "return" in the form of the clone was inappropriately subdued and not well done ("uh...thanks, Superman.")

But look, the movie's point wasn't to reenact the Doomsday plot from the comic. The movie had two broad themes. The first was dealing with loss but an extraordinary loss at that, as Superman basically had legendary status and, for the purposes of the movie, was the only superhero. The second big theme was the issue of what happens when the world's "golden God," to use Luthor's words, pretty much decides he is one. The clone Superman plot uniquely drove home the issue that a Superman with a fundamentally different conscience and set of values would be utterly destructive to the world. In this the upbringing of the Kents is highlighted as a true blessing, and the viewer is made acutely aware of what a profoundly moral hero Superman is. He could easily wield his power to seize control, wreak destruction, or enforce his ethics by force as clone Superman did...no, thank heaven, he stands up for the people.

No, its not the comic story. But its a good story. For me, that's more than good enough. Superman Doomsday certainly was a great effort, and I can't wait to watch Justice League: New Frontier later today.
 

The Overlord

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:sweat: - NO.

But its a "Justice Lords" type of justice...not civilized justice.
yeah, but if you make a villain as vile as a child killer, you almost wish something bad would happen to the villain.

I mean when a villain goes around killing childern and the authories seem too incompetent to keep him in prison, then the hero dropping him off a building doesn't seem that bad.
 

Wolf Boy2

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In a completely lawless environment, it would just be old fashioned "eye for an eye" frontier justice. But in American society, where we have a system of laws and regulations, yes, it was very wrong.

As a US citizen, one is bound to follow the rules of the land. If you prefer frontier justice, there are lots of other places in the world where you can get it. The Criminal Justice system might be flawed, but vigilante justice is only as good or bad as the vigilante.

Depending on what state Metropolis is in, Toyman might have even gotten the death penalty for his crimes, rendering Superman's actions unesscessary. Even without the death penalty, the consequences would've been severe.
 

The Overlord

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In a completely lawless environment, it would just be old fashioned "eye for an eye" frontier justice. But in American society, where we have a system of laws and regulations, yes, it was very wrong.

As a US citizen, one is bound to follow the rules of the land. If you prefer frontier justice, there are lots of other places in the world where you can get it. The Criminal Justice system might be flawed, but vigilante justice is only as good or bad as the vigilante.

Depending on what state Metropolis is in, Toyman might have even gotten the death penalty for his crimes, rendering Superman's actions unesscessary. Even without the death penalty, the consequences would've been severe.
Of course one has to wonder at how compentent these authories were, when they couldn't keep him in prison after he threatened a bus full of kids.
 

darkdetective

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Oh. So I guess Supes should just let Toyman go to prison, escape, and kill more kids? If someone has a record like that, be done with them. Bats should have killed Joker by now as well. What stops these heroes from "crossing the line"? A hero needs the villain more than the villain needs the hero. The villain has a plan. The hero gets in the way, and stops them. If there was no villain, the hero wouldn't be a hero. He would be a nut running around in his underoos. If any hero really cared about the wellbeing of others, after the 2nd strike, the villain would be killed off. But with no more villains, the heroes would be bored, and no longer heroes. In "A Better World". the reason the JLords went to the JL universe is because they liked being heroes, and to do so, the needed villains. It wasn't there desire to better the JL's world that bought them there. It was there egos. If heroes truly didn't have egos, and wouldn't the the law into there hands too far (like arresting someone for littering), then killing a villain would be the right thing to do. Think of all the lives that would be saved. Or do you want to wait till the villain does something truly horrific?
 

Wolf Boy2

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Oh. So I guess Supes should just let Toyman go to prison, escape, and kill more kids? If someone has a record like that, be done with them. Bats should have killed Joker by now as well. Think of all the lives that would be saved. Or do you want to wait till the villain does something truly horrific?
Well, in Batman's case, the fact that he doesn't kill is one of the few things keeping him alive. Imagine if the police came at him "Mask of the Phantasm" or "Batman Begins" style every time he went out? He'd be dead within a week.

Though your point about killing the Joker is a good one. This is part of why I don't care for the current comic books; the events of "The Killing Joke" and "A Death in the Family" push Joker's character too far into the darkness to be salvageable. Would Bruce OR Jim really be so loyal to the law after the Joker beating Jason to death, or shooting, paralyzing and raping Barbara while photographing the whole ordeal? Doubtful.

This is why I think the DCAU was a superior example of storytelling. Those two stories were more or less combined into the ROTJ flashback. Batman was subjected to watching Tim's torture much like Jim was subjected to watching Barbara's. How did Bruce react to ROTJ? With murderous rage (throwing a very deadly knife at the Joker). How did Jim react to ROTJ? Allowing the Joker's body to be buried beneath the ruins of Arkham Asylum.

Also, the DCAU Batman never took on another young partner after Tim's mutilation, unlike the ridiculous comic book Batman who has had two more Robins (one of whom was also killed!).

Even though Joker wasn't killed intentionally in ROTJ, I don't think at that point either Bruce or Jim would've felt much remorse over his death. Bruce, maybe a little bit, but Jim is a cop who has probably already killed people in the line of duty. I thought it was very believable how he kept the secret of the Joker's death.
 
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DerekPowers

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In a completely lawless environment, it would just be old fashioned "eye for an eye" frontier justice. But in American society, where we have a system of laws and regulations, yes, it was very wrong.

As a US citizen, one is bound to follow the rules of the land. If you prefer frontier justice, there are lots of other places in the world where you can get it. The Criminal Justice system might be flawed, but vigilante justice is only as good or bad as the vigilante.

Depending on what state Metropolis is in, Toyman might have even gotten the death penalty for his crimes, rendering Superman's actions unesscessary. Even without the death penalty, the consequences would've been severe.
I hate to get on the soap box here, but as an American citizen, I find the "law" to be pretty lawless. As a country, we start unnecessary wars, we dont adhear to the Geneva Convention, we don't adhere to U.N. or international law, we torture people, and it would appear that we have a government, the executive branch in particular, that behaves above the law, with no repercussions. We are basically governed by murderers, and thats the sad and honest truth...

When it comes to the Superman clone or the Justice Lords, they justify their actions by saying its for our own good. In their minds, they are righteous, and you cannot convince them otherwise, and therefore, the ends justify the means. That, obviously, is not how a civilized or democratic society opperates.

The sad fact is, I think the Superman Clone and the Justice Lord's brand of justice, or "frontier justice", as you put it, is the law of the land in America. I really hate to say it, but as a US citizen, that is how I feel. I think its a joke to make like we have such a great judicial system here, because we dont (we imprision a higher percentage of our population than ANY other country), and our government is probably one of the most corrupt governments on earth.
 

ROBOTRON

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I hate to get on the soap box here, but as an American citizen, I find the "law" to be pretty lawless. As a country, we start unnecessary wars, we dont adhear to the Geneva Convention, we don't adhere to U.N. or international law, we torture people, and it would appear that we have a government, the executive branch in particular, that behaves above the law, with no repercussions. We are basically governed by murderers, and thats the sad and honest truth...

When it comes to the Superman clone or the Justice Lords, they justify their actions by saying its for our own good. In their minds, they are righteous, and you cannot convince them otherwise, and therefore, the ends justify the means. That, obviously, is not how a civilized or democratic society opperates.

The sad fact is, I think the Superman Clone and the Justice Lord's brand of justice, or "frontier justice", as you put it, is the law of the land in America. I really hate to say it, but as a US citizen, that is how I feel. I think its a joke to make like we have such a great judicial system here, because we dont (we imprision a higher percentage of our population than ANY other country), and our government is probably one of the most corrupt governments on earth.
^ If this were a civilzed world, you would be king...sir.:cool:
 

Miyamoto Musashi

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Not a wrong do, done in a wrong way. It sure is better that he gets executed by law.

Was that cop who talked after Superman's clone lifted Toyman voiced by the same guy who voiced Frederik Foswell?
 

Wolf Boy2

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I hate to get on the soap box here, but as an American citizen, I find the "law" to be pretty lawless. As a country, we start unnecessary wars, we dont adhear to the Geneva Convention, we don't adhere to U.N. or international law, we torture people, and it would appear that we have a government, the executive branch in particular, that behaves above the law, with no repercussions. We are basically governed by murderers, and thats the sad and honest truth...
Well, I could get really technical and point out that the Geneva Conventions only apply to the High Contracting Parties, thus countries like North Vietnam and Iraq (or groups like the Viet Cong or Al Qaeda) have no rights whatsoever under the 1949 convention text. But I think you're talking more about human rights in the moral sense than what is or is not allowed on a sheet of paper.

DerekPowers said:
The sad fact is, I think the Superman Clone and the Justice Lord's brand of justice, or "frontier justice", as you put it, is the law of the land in America. I really hate to say it, but as a US citizen, that is how I feel. I think its a joke to make like we have such a great judicial system here, because we dont (we imprision a higher percentage of our population than ANY other country), and our government is probably one of the most corrupt governments on earth.
I can think of more corrupt ones, but that's just a sad fact of governments in general. The king is always above his own law. However, I think it can be dangerous to slip into a self-hating mentality.

America has greatly improved in the last two centuries. If you think Iraq has War Crimes, look what the Washington DC Government did to the Confederacy and the Native Americans (Sherman's March, Wounded Knee). And that was right here on our own continent.

At the dawn of the nineteenth century, neither blacks nor women could vote. At the dawn of the twentieth century, blacks could vote but women couldn't. At the dawn of the twenty-first, both can vote.

Which is why Superman is called the "Man of Tomorrow." He represents the noble and progressive aspects of America. Look at Action Comics #1: in his very first story he took on wife beaters and corrupt senators. Likewise, the Superman clone or the Justice Lord Superman represent the corruption of the past and present. Superman's "reflection in a cracked mirror."

I think people look at Superman and think, what a joke, America isn't like that. But Superman isn't supposed to represent what America is, but rather what she can be.
 

pharmmajor

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Of course one has to wonder at how compentent these authories were, when they couldn't keep him in prison after he threatened a bus full of kids.
Well, considering Toyman could construct a giant robotic spider, I'd assume he possessed the skills to escape from his incarceration.

Regarding his execution by the Superman clone... as heinous as the murder of a child is, I think the worst punishment is for the killer to spend the rest of their days in prison, cut off from the rest of society, beaten and raped daily so that every waking minute is spent wishing for death. My philosophy is that scum who do such horrible acts are going to hell anyway; why not make them experience a little of it during their remaining time on earth?

So yes, the Superman clone was wrong when he deviated from the original Man of Steel's position as a crimefighter and decided he was judge, jury and executioner.
 

Wolf Boy2

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Regarding his execution by the Superman clone... as heinous as the murder of a child is, I think the worst punishment is for the killer to spend the rest of their days in prison, cut off from the rest of society, beaten and raped daily so that every waking minute is spent wishing for death. My philosophy is that scum who do such horrible acts are going to hell anyway; why not make them experience a little of it during their remaining time on earth?
High profile killers IRL sentenced to life, such as BTK, are put in solitary to prevent that. Knowingly condemning someone to a prison where they will be abused would be cruel and unusual punishment.
 

The Overlord

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Well, considering Toyman could construct a giant robotic spider, I'd assume he possessed the skills to escape from his incarceration.

Regarding his execution by the Superman clone... as heinous as the murder of a child is, I think the worst punishment is for the killer to spend the rest of their days in prison, cut off from the rest of society, beaten and raped daily so that every waking minute is spent wishing for death. My philosophy is that scum who do such horrible acts are going to hell anyway; why not make them experience a little of it during their remaining time on earth?

So yes, the Superman clone was wrong when he deviated from the original Man of Steel's position as a crimefighter and decided he was judge, jury and executioner.
See the problem is, if he was able to escape the first time, why wouldn't he be able to escape a second time?
 

pharmmajor

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High profile killers IRL sentenced to life, such as BTK, are put in solitary to prevent that. Knowingly condemning someone to a prison where they will be abused would be cruel and unusual punishment.
I understand your position. However, regarding the Constitutional rights of a violent criminal... I'm sorry to say that I don't believe they should be protected by them. In my eyes, if you harm another person (physically or sexually), you have forfeitted your rights. And I'm a libertarian, so that's saying something.
 

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