re: Butch Hartman

[Aaron K]

With the release of A New Wish, it’s gotten a lot of praise, and while I can’t excuse Nickelodeon abusing their most popular IPs, it does look a lot better than the later seasons of the original series and Fairly Odder. However, because of this, I’ve also been noticing Butch Hartman getting dumped on, with many people claiming he ruined his own show. Now obviously, he is not a good person, but I can’t deny all the time and effort he put into the early seasons, which is why I think he’s pretty much completely innocent from his own creation’s downfall. Here’s four reasons why in no particular order:

• He was hardly involved with the later seasons of the OG series or Fairly Odder (just like creators of most long-running cartoons). Damn near every episode from those were written by other people.
• As I said, Nickelodeon abuses their most popular IPs. Why else do you think SpongeBob is still going?
• Even if he was just as involved as before, executives would ruin everything. He stated himself Chloe, Sparky and Poof were added because of them. And before you say he probably wasn’t specifically asked to make them bad, again, there were loads of other writers.
• The overall quality of when the series fell harder than the Roman Empire was when Nickelodeon itself went downhill, with shows like Breadwinners and Sanjay and Craig.

He should be criticized for plagiarism and scamming people (among other things), but my point to lump in artistic talent with that is just wrong.


On a side note, I don’t know every detail on Danny Phantom S3, so I don’t exactly know how much Butch is to blame for that.

 

[Pooky]

Since the Oaxis drama 6 (oh geez) years ago he's become a hate symbol and intermittent point of fixation for a niche internet community. Is it merited? Not really in my opinion, or at least it's not really proportional, but it's similar to how some people fixate on certain influencers or online personalities they don't like, there isn't much point in looking for logic in it.

 

[Marble]

or at least it's not really proportional

He's the sort of person the Twitter mob gravitates toward. Someone who places themself upon a taller pedestal than they perhaps deserve. It makes them easy and satisfying to topple.

Unfortunately, there's this pervasive culture on social media as a whole where the best way to make yourself look like a good, decent person is to tear apart any and all flaws and wrongdoings of others in as loud a way as possible.

I don't know enough about his work to comment on whether the shows he worked on were successful because of him or not (it is a team effort, after all), but I definitely enjoyed FOP, I enjoyed the episodes of shows he worked on before that, heck I even enjoyed (what little I saw of) TUFF Puppy. I doubt he would have accomplished all that if he didn't have some modicum of talent in at least one aspect of the business.

 

[Shiloh Otter]

Hartman has views about queer people that I do not appreciate, and I will say no more about that, because it would violate forum rules if i did.

I can also safely say that the best episodes of the shows he created were written mostly by Steve Marmel, with a few written by others that were not Hartman.

 

[PinkieLopBun]

He was hardly involved with the later seasons of the OG series

Where did you see that? I could have missed something, but I was under the impression that he was showrunner until the end.

The overall quality of when the series fell harder than the Roman Empire was when Nickelodeon itself went downhill, with shows like Breadwinners and Sanjay and Craig.

I don't think those shows would have had an effect on FOP. They were separate shows with their own creative teams. During that time, Nick also had better received shows like TMNT 2012, Harvey Beaks, and the start of The Loud House.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't know, I think there is a lot of legitimate criticism you can give Butch Hartman:

 

[Mejo]

I gotta say, I just hate how people nowadays are trying to downplay Butch Hartman’s contributions to Danny Phantom and instead are trying to say that people like Steve Marmel and Stephen Silver are the “True Creator’s” of Danny Phantom, much like how people are trying to say that Bob Camp was the “True Creator” of Ren and Stimpy instead of John K. That’s one of the most annoying copes by people who can’t admit that a person who made some of their shows did horrible stuff and that’s something I don’t think that those alleged “True Creator’s” would even agree with it.

The only reason those show were so good initially was because of EVERYBODY involved and yes, that does include Butch Hartman and John K. While yes, those people did horrible things that people should acknowledge and they do deserve to be punished (ESPECIALLY John K, that man deserves to be behind bars for the rest of his life), you would be lying to yourself if you tried to say that they weren’t integral to those shows.

Plus, like saying that Butch Hartman and John K were the sole creators of those shows, saying that people like Steve Marmel and Bob Camp were the “True Creator’s” of their respective shows means that you’re ignoring plenty of other people that contributed a great deal to those shows. In Danny Phantom’s case, what about people like Wincat Alcala, Bob Boyle, Sib Ventress and in Ren and Stimpy’s case, what about people like Chris Reccardi, Tom McGrath, Vincent Waller, Bob Jaques and Bill Wray? All of those are talented people that shouldn’t go overlooked in favor of one of two people.

What people overlook most of the time is that most of animation is inherently a collaborative process. To chalk it up to just one person or two is just plain foolish to me. That’s why nobody ever says that Harman and Ising was the sole creator of Looney Tunes or that Fred Quimby was the sole creator of Tom and Jerry (and if they do, they shouldn’t)

 

[Shiloh Otter]

^ I was only saying my favorite episodes of FOP and Danny Phantom had little to no involvement from Hartman in the writing department, which is literally true.

 

[Mejo]

^ I was only saying my favorite episodes of FOP and Danny Phantom had little to no involvement from Hartman in the writing department, which is literally true.

Fair point but I wasn’t really directing my post at your post (at least I think that’s what you were saying judging by the ^ icon).

 

[Light Lucario]

I'll move this thread over to the Nicktoons section since this does focus more on his Nickelodeon shows.

I think that the notion that he had little involvement in the later seasons of FOP doesn't really make sense. He was still part of the staff for those seasons and there were multiple writers involved. He wasn't the only problem with how the series went, but I don't think he was entirely blameless for running the series into the ground either. Nickelodeon kept renewing the series, but if he had ended the series with Channel Chasers, FOP would have probably been held up in high regard.

Besides all that, I think that there are plenty of legit issues people have with Butch Hartman as a person. The whole Oaxis situation speaks for itself. He has a pretty big ego from what I've heard. I think he and his wife were also involved with some group that was about praying autism away or something like that, so that's a really huge red flag in my book.

 

[Aaron K]

Here are some counterarguments and extra points.

1. If Steve was one of the reasons why the early seasons were actually good, then how come you think the people involved with the later seasons didn’t have much say in the show? Yeah Butch and Steve were friends but that doesn’t change how Fairly Odder, a show he was merely executive producer (which he also is on A New Wish) for, sucks BALLS. It depends on if the people who are actually in charge care (also, shoutout to Mejo for their reply).
2. Seth MacFarlane’s involvement with Family Guy is a similar case, yet most people are quick to come to his defense.
3. Imagine planning to end your show (Channel Chasers) but because it’s so popular the network orders more episodes (don’t say Butch had any involvement in the show’s renewal, you know that Nickelodeon runs their successes into the ground). Would you not start to care less?
4. Pretty sure he has other projects he actually wants to do.
5. Fairly OddParents is a comedy, just like Breadwinners and Sanjay and Craig. TMNT is action, and Harvey Beaks and Loud House are (was for the latter) down to earth. Yes the crews are different but it’s the higher ups who decide what gets made.

Also yes, I do think Butch is a crap person.

 

[PinkieLopBun]

Fairly OddParents is a comedy, just like Breadwinners and Sanjay and Craig. TMNT is action, and Harvey Beaks and Loud House are (was for the latter) down to earth.

That doesn’t change my point. Those shows could have been bad too, but a lot of people don’t think they were.

 

[Aaron K]

^ I was only saying my favorite episodes of FOP and Danny Phantom had little to no involvement from Hartman in the writing department, which is literally true.

Just search up who wrote episodes like Certifiable Super Sitter, Fairly OddPet or Big Fairy Share Scare. Butch is not credited at all.

Hartman has views about queer people that I do not appreciate, and I will say no more about that, because it would violate forum rules if i did.

I can also safely say that the best episodes of the shows he created were written mostly by Steve Marmel, with a few written by others that were not Hartman.

Just search up who wrote episodes like Certifiable Super Sitter, Fairly OddPet or Big Fairy Share Scare. Butch is not credited at all.

So how come those writers don't get as much flack as much as Steve is praised?