Star Trek: Enterprise "In a Mirror, Darkly" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Fone Bone]

Well it's all just chit chat FB, nothing to say it's fact. No matter how relevant Judith and Garfield are at the moment to Trek canon, you'll find few who'll find theirs and Shatner's stance on his Kirk novels as being canonical.

Furthermore, as a TV show, where they didn't write the episode itself, their input will be fairly superficial as the plot goes - they aren't going to spend the time forcing story edits to fit one of their pulp novel cash cows..

I think essentially, maybe their input (if at all) was limited to setting up the idea of First Contact being a good point to introduce the idea of the mirror universe to the story - being both relevant to Enterprise and a good vantage point to show a change of history.

It could all be utter co-incidence as there is as much logic to say the opening could have been the work of the writer as there is to say it may have been the input of the co-producers/staffwriters who had written an idea on a similar vein in one of their books.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of singular point of historical deviation. Why? Because I think it makes for a tidier universe. The Borg get to Earth via time travel potentially infringe on circumstance (there is an argument that their appearance was always part of the timeline), affect the major players in this historical event and are seen by many and yet have no pronouced effect?

I would have thought there would have been records of details of Borg in Star Fleet's data if they had indeed been part of the time line, so it makes for a nice way to keep the timeline free of headache and logically set up a tangent which leads to the mirror universe.

I was sort of pleased that Enterprise sort of backed up this idea partially cos I love it and also that I love the kirk books and consider them person al canon... shhhhhh.

I won't say anything.

Most of the scenes shown prior to FC could have easily fit into our own Earth history, which has seen plenty of violence and war. The key difference is the development of what would become the Terran Empire. So you're right, there history differs from ours in that that empire existed and had involvement in events. However, that doesn't change the fact that Earth's development in the mirror universe still paralleled ours until after FC.

In the mirror universe, they reached the same exact point as in our universe: Cochrane and others gathered in Montana during the same time frame with the same Vulcan ship landing creating Earth's first alien contact. From that point, they still could have moved in the direction that would lead to the founding of the United Federation of Planets. But they didn't. They chose to attack and capture the Vulcan vessel, leading down a path that would eventually result in Earth and humanity's doom.

So even if the Borg had nothing to do with it, FC was a point of divergence between the two universes leading to, by the 24th century, Earth's fall and the establishment of the Alliance in the mirror universe versus Earth flourishing and being a part of the greatest power of the alpha quadrant in our universe.

But the theme ALSO showed that the Terran Empire flag was planted on the moon landing. Unless the moon landing took place AFTER First Contact which would be a universe divergence in itself in 1968. The impression I got from the opening was that Earth's development was RADICALLY different ALL through-out it's history. While it would be kind of cool for it to be First Contact where the divergence started it was clearly not.

Do you know what I think one of the keys differences in the Mirror Universe is? Extreme and erratic behavior on the parts of history makers. Look at Spock. He flips his position on the balance of power after a five minute discussion with OUR Kirk and leads a reform for peace that HAPPENS to go over well with the Earth people regardless of the fact that the entire culture up until that point was conquer or be conquered. AND his peace message was SO strong that The Terran Empire not only dissolved itself but threw away all of it's armaments leading to humans being made slaves by the Alliance.

In other words, I think the Mirror Universe is just insane. Loopy. This is a universe in which guy who was a twentieth century singer in OUR universe and redesigned for a holodeck program four centuries later is a Alliance rebel. (Vic Fontaine). A REAL LIVE HUMAN Alliance rebel.

I think I agree with Rom. This universe is just nuts.

 

[Burgundy Ranger]

The first episode (if not the second) was totally fun and I don't mind one bit that we got a great 2-parter like this in favor of what might have been a mediocre proper-universe story. I certainly don't see this as a "waste" by any means. A good show is a good show, regardless of how it might affect the finale.

I wasn't at all comfortable with the word "waste" when I used it the first time. It's still not quite the perfect word. Maybe "misplaced" is better. The ending left you wanting more and it's frustrating to know more ain't on the way.

This two-parter shows that there really wasn't a grand plan to get to the end -- one that took a good half-dozen episodes to unveil. All this promo buildup to the last episode (funny how there wasn't such promotion BEFORE the network cancelled the show) kinda deserved a storyline buildup as well.

Didn't it?

 

[DarkAngel]

But the theme ALSO showed that the Terran Empire flag was planted on the moon landing. Unless the moon landing took place AFTER First Contact which would be a universe divergence in itself in 1968. The impression I got from the opening was that Earth's development was RADICALLY different ALL through-out it's history. While it would be kind of cool for it to be First Contact where the divergence started it was clearly not.

When I talk about divergence, I'm not saying the two universes were identical and then changed. I'm not using the word divergence loosely to mean any differences between the two universes. I'm talking about a major branching off into two entirely different paths. As I said in my previous post, I'm aware that what would eventually call itself the Terran Empire was in existence before First Contact. And maybe they were already using that name before FC. Fine. But whatever the case, yeah, I acknowledge the Empire existed before FC.

But I'm saying despite that, both universes got to the same point: First Contact with the Vulcans in Bozeman, Montana. Yeah, there were differences between the two universes, but they were still running pretty parallel. They both reached the same point at the same time at which Earth was ready to make it's entry into interstellar events. But FC was pivotal. It was a turning point. That's why we were shown it in "In a Mirror, Darkly". That was the point of no return. That was where a major branch occurred that sent both alpha quadrant's in vastly different directions. As time would pass from the events of FC, the fate of humanity would move further and further apart, as we can see by comparing the mirror universes in Enterprise, then in TOS, then in DS9.

Clearly something happened in the mirror universe to create a militaristic atmosphere on Earth. That was a prelude to the major decision point in FC. It all built up to that moment and a decision/action that would set that universe on a different path.

 

[Fone Bone]

That's entirely possible. Although the changed opening gave me the impression that the universe as a whole was just plain messed up and Zeframe Cochrane murdering that Vulcan was just symptomatic of a larger problem with the universe rather than a starting point for a huge change.

I still say the Mirror Universe is just nuts.

 

[Harley_Quinn]

The ending left you wanting more and it's frustrating to know more ain't on the way.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way, I was hoping there would be a 3rd part. Still one of my favorite episodes. Is this the first time that Trek showed the Mirror universe without any of normal characters present?

 

[DarkAngel]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way, I was hoping there would be a 3rd part. Still one of my favorite episodes. Is this the first time that Trek showed the Mirror universe without any of normal characters present?

Yep. I definitely feel a lot of regret this season. This really should have been the first season. Then, as fas as the mirror universe would be concerned, this could have been only the beginning. Same thing with the Malcolm Reed/Section 31 story. Instead of being a single, self-contained story, it could have been the first of a series-spanning storyline.

It's too bad. But, on the flip side, it's good we've at least gotten a taste of some of this.

 

[Harley_Quinn]

Yep. I definitely feel a lot of regret this season. This really should have been the first season. Then, as fas as the mirror universe would be concerned, this could have been only the beginning. Same thing with the Malcolm Reed/Section 31 story. Instead of being a single, self-contained story, it could have been the first of a series-spanning storyline.

It's too bad. But, on the flip side, it's good we've at least gotten a taste of some of this.

I agree, I was thinking like, uhh we'll never get to see how this will play out. Oh well a taste of what could have been. I still would have loved the follow up episode with Empress Sato

 

[Supernovametalstar]

2. The ending just felt a little flat to me. Hoshi's great, but I was pulling for Archer just moments earlier. During the battle, I was dreading that the "good guys" might actually win. When Tucker restored power and Defiant annihilated the other vessel I was ecstatic. Emotionally, I was at a high at that moment, and it was all sucked away with Hoshi's power play. Archer was the central character in this two-parter, the one I had basically invested in, and so I basically felt nothing when Hoshi came out on top. Wasn't satisfying for me.

It was for me. I'm a little upset that I didn't see it coming before. When I rewatched the episode I saw that in the scene where Hoshi was pouring that green drink for her and Archer, the camera focused on it more than it normally would for just background effect. At the end when the camera panned and zoomed out from the drink in the captain's quarters (the one with the promo scene of Archer declaring himself emperor) it was plain as day that he was going to get poisoned. I just didn't expect Travis to be in cahoots with Hoshi. I had figured Travis (since he was wearing a red shirt), would get killed at some point during the episode.

The only thing I don't understand is why they made a two part mirror verse episode that didn't have any contact with the "real" universe. Usually they have a point, but as a stand alone I liked it.

 

[Harley_Quinn]

The only thing I don't understand is why they made a two part mirror verse episode that didn't have any contact with the "real" universe. Usually they have a point, but as a stand alone I liked it.

Yeah I know, I kind of enjoyed it.

 

[James]

The only thing I don't understand is why they made a two part mirror verse episode that didn't have any contact with the "real" universe. Usually they have a point, but as a stand alone I liked it.

Several reasons I guess:

1. Diversity. Foremost, the "mirror" format has not only been done countless times now, it's a scifi cliche. I think if they wanted to do a mirror episode they wanted to find a new take, or not bother. Otherwise, your just going through the motions.. how many takes can you have with good versions meeting the bad versions? How many routes can you take similar character types in similar scenerios and create encouters which the viewer feels are fresh?

2. While it's easy to have revisits to the mirror universe after Star Trek TOS, it's harder to find reasons to have them prior. Kirk and his crew are meant to be the first accounted presense in the mirror universe, so you could over complicate the story (as with the Ferengi debut in Enterprise) by having to contrive a method of having them encounter but not account a meeting. Why not just do what the intention of a mirror universe intends and show the mirror universe.

3. And this is a bugbear for my mother in particular. She loathes Enterprise because it keeps "stealing" the "firsts" for the other crews. Kirk was originally the first captain to have a Vulcan first officer (or is the implication..) uh uh - you forgot about Archer! Kirk was one of the first humans to [strike]trick[/strike]learn from their Vulcan about Pon Farr - a most private issue with Vulcans... uh uh! Enterprise did it first! The first visual contact with the Ferengi was Captain Picard... uh uh! It was Captain Archer! Let's not get into the fact that Pike's Enterprise was considered the first Starship Enterprise... uh uh! Etc..

Essentially, Enterprise has "stolen" firsts from other captains for it's own show. Now, there is nothing to say previous captains couldn't have had unofficial first contact with aliens, but to a viewer, one starts to feel as if rather than give the new crew their own "firsts" they steal from the others. I think this applies to the mirror universe. How many stories and contacts can you steal from the other crews before you really get fan resentment that Archer's crew start to feel like the Mary Sue of Star Trek.. like a fan fiction whose author would rather have his characters do all the things that the real characters did rather than find his own.

So I think to keep the show's own integrity and to cut down on the "stealing", it was a good move to keep this mirror universe non contacted in this story.

 

[Beefy]

Poor Mirror Archer. That's the problem with the Terran Empire: there's so much betrayal that it's hard to find a loyal crew that you can trust and not have to worry about about being stabbed in the back for career advancement.

The mirror universe would be a perfect place for the Augments. I'm suprised all humans weren't genetically enhanced in this universe. It would make them faster and stronger to help with their goals of conquest.

 

[Style]

The Trek books have no Cannonicle weight whatsoever. None. Nil. No "Expanded Universe," no "Cannon until an episode says it's not," nothing. They're imaginairy stories. DON'T GO LOOKING TO THE BOOKS FOR INSIGHT ON CANNON CONNECTIONS IN STAR TREK!!!

If you do, you'll get a real big head ache.

 

[Temple Fugate]

Let's not get into the fact that Pike's Enterprise was considered the first Starship Enterprise... uh uh! Etc.

Actually, Captain Robert April's Enterprise was supposed to be the first. And you left out the little run-in with the Borg. I'm such a geek.

I totally agree that this 2-parter's structure helped prevent another "theft." Enterprise should have been doing original adventures from the beginning instead of throwing in ailens we've seen in future series for the sake of attracting fans. But it probably was that very sameness with the other series that drove some fans away; fans that were expecting something new were just getting the same old stories.

 

[James]

The Trek books have no Cannonicle weight whatsoever. None. Nil. No "Expanded Universe," no "Cannon until an episode says it's not," nothing. They're imaginairy stories. DON'T GO LOOKING TO THE BOOKS FOR INSIGHT ON CANNON CONNECTIONS IN STAR TREK!!!

If you do, you'll get a real big head ache.

And if you read the posts I made properly, you will see that was already made clear. Please read what I say before responding in caps.

The point was a production one, with the Reese Stevens pair having formulated this idea in the books, was it perhaps their input which offered such a similar turning point in the episode. It's all just for chit chat as I said, no need to sprain the caps lock on your keyboard.

 

[raykremer]

Actually, Captain Robert April's Enterprise was supposed to be the first.

April had the same ship as Pike and Kirk. But yeah, they can hardly retcon the NX-01 onto the wall of the observation lounge in TNG.

3. And this is a bugbear for my mother in particular. She loathes Enterprise because it keeps "stealing" the "firsts" for the other crews. Kirk was originally the first captain to have a Vulcan first officer (or is the implication..) uh uh - you forgot about Archer! Kirk was one of the first humans to [strike]trick[/strike]learn from their Vulcan about Pon Farr - a most private issue with Vulcans... uh uh! Enterprise did it first! The first visual contact with the Ferengi was Captain Picard... uh uh! It was Captain Archer! Let's not get into the fact that Pike's Enterprise was considered the first Starship Enterprise... uh uh! Etc..

Essentially, Enterprise has "stolen" firsts from other captains for it's own show.

Quite true. Mucking-with-continuity-only-not does produce some fun nerdgasm moments, but some of the times they've done it haven't worked as well as others.

 

[James]

April had the same ship as Pike and Kirk. But yeah, they can hardly retcon the NX-01 onto the wall of the observation lounge in TNG.

Missing on the wall of the gallery in TMP too. Maybe the crew did something to fall from grace with the Federation..... aside from the previous three seasons.. (joking Enterprise fans... or am I.. )

 

[Fone Bone]

Missing on the wall of the gallery in TMP too. Maybe the crew did something to fall from grace with the Federation..... aside from the previous three seasons.. (joking Enterprise fans... or am I.. )

It could be argued that only the FEDERATION vessels were on Picard's wall. The shuttlcraft Enterprise was not on the wall and that was clearly an exploration vechicle as well.

So, yeah, it was a good idea to set Enterprise BEFORE the founding of the Federation. It's come close MANY times to breaking continuity but with the exception of a disastrous first contact with the Klingons actually being benign it has never actually broken it. And that disasterous FC was only referenced in ONE TNG episode and wasn't exactly a core principal of Trek lore. Sort of like how in Day of the Dove Kang says there is no Klingon Devil and we see him in Devil's Due.