"Young Justice: Outsiders" Season Three Talkback, Part 2 (Spoilers)

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Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
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Young Justice: Outsiders "First Impression"

Ironic title.

That was so bad I'm legitimately upset. It's like the episode took every single fault the show's detractors have pointed out (stilted dialogue, over-explanation of easy-to-grasp plot points, overly complicated resolutions, bad voice acting) and just upped all of that nonsense to the Nth degree. If this was the first episode of Young Justice somebody I knew saw, and they knew I saw every episode before this, I'd be outright embarrassed. This is amateur hour, and a completely shameful waste of 22 minutes. 0.
 

Frontier

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Young Justice: Outsiders "First Impression"

Ironic title.

That was so bad I'm legitimately upset. It's like the episode took every single fault the show's detractors have pointed out (stilted dialogue, over-explanation of easy-to-grasp plot points, overly complicated resolutions, bad voice acting) and just upped all of that nonsense to the Nth degree. If this was the first episode of Young Justice somebody I knew saw, and they knew I saw every episode before this, I'd be outright embarrassed. This is amateur hour, and a completely shameful waste of 22 minutes. 0.
To be honest, I felt like this episode was actually addressing a lot people's issues with the show for the past few episodes.

(Except for, I guess, the voice acting).
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
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Why are you watching this series, Fone Bone?
Because I sometimes like it. I have given episodes good grades in the past. Look at my reviews of the first half of the season. They are almost all positive and I called the season a return to form. For some reason, this batch of episodes has been working my last nerve. But I'm not hate-watching the show, I swear. I sometimes like it.
 
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Deshaded

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The Season 2 team is getting a strong clap back in this last half after hardly appearing at first. I'm really enjoying it.

Though it seems like a plothole that The Light needed confirmation of Nightwing's team in "Home Fires" when they weren't going to be The Outsiders.
 

Frontier

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The Season 2 team is getting a strong clap back in this last half after hardly appearing at first. I'm really enjoying it.

Though it seems like a plothole that The Light needed confirmation of Nightwing's team in "Home Fires" when they weren't going to be The Outsiders.
It's nice to see them doing more with the season 2 kids, although I'm still hoping we get to see more of the Batman Inc. sidekicks too :).

It would be pretty great if at least Arrowette joined...

I'm wondering what's next for Dick since I thought they were setting up his own team to lead but now he's pretty much shipped everybody off :confused:.
 

Yojimbo

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I'm still hoping we get to see more of the Batman Inc. sidekicks too :).

It would be pretty great if at least Arrowette joined...

I'm wondering what's next for Dick since I thought they were setting up his own team to lead but now he's pretty much shipped everybody off :confused:.
I agree with all points. Good point about Nightwing, I was just thinking about it the other day. He's become an x factor -- what's his role since he's just appearing at the Anti-Light meetings and basically left his only remaining "hatchling" Victor to Jace to work with at the Hub. Same with Black Lightning, he's had a big arc in the first half and now in the second half he's just background cameos. Both don't seem interested in returning to their respective teams at all. So that leaves them out of a good reason for appearing in an episode. I can maybe see them suiting up and training meta-teens at the youth center because it's essentially the same thing Nightwing's G-team was, seeing which metas were suited/willing for being trained to be heroes then funneling them to the Team. Otherwise, it would kind of bite if we don't see both in a big role until the season finale. I mean, I'm sure Nightwing probably went back to conducting opportunistic raids on meta trafficking labs.
 

Frontier

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I agree with all points. Good point about Nightwing, I was just thinking about it the other day. He's become an x factor -- what's his role since he's just appearing at the Anti-Light meetings and basically left his only remaining "hatchling" Victor to Jace to work with at the Hub. Same with Black Lightning, he's had a big arc in the first half and now in the second half he's just background cameos. Both don't seem interested in returning to their respective teams at all. So that leaves them out of a good reason for appearing in an episode. I can maybe see them suiting up and training meta-teens at the youth center because it's essentially the same thing Nightwing's G-team was, seeing which metas were suited/willing for being trained to be heroes then funneling them to the Team. Otherwise, it would kind of bite if we don't see both in a big role until the season finale. I mean, I'm sure Nightwing probably went back to conducting opportunistic raids on meta trafficking labs.
I imagine Jefferson will tie back to whatever is going on with Jace because of their relationship.

Maybe Dick will check in on the Outsiders every now and then or run a Batman Inc. mission :)?
 

Blue Sword

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Kaldur's comment about everyone having secrets to keep makes me wonder if his status as Manta's son is public knowledge or not. Given the League's PR problem, I can imagine they'd want to keep that under wraps as well.

Not impressed by what they've done with Devastation on this show.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
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I'm sort of sitting with the last episode a bit, and wondering why I disliked it when it seems to have gotten a positive reception from everyone else. My opinion was so unusual Yojimbo asked me why I bothered watching the show. Am I trolling at this point?

And the thing is I don't think I am. I didn't go into huge detail about the problems I mentioned, including overexplaining things and overly complicated endings, but maybe if I talk a little about those ideas outside of my review you'll kind of dig why I not feeling the... word I'm not giving the show.

The last scene bugs the crap out of me. Everything about it is wrong. I don't just say it as a viewer, I say it as an aspiring writer. And it's fact that nobody else sees it as wrong and accepts is as matter of course, which is why I always seem to be unhappy with what I watch, while nobody else gets the crap bugged out of them on a routine basis.

I think the thing that gets me is that supposedly one of Young Justice's selling points is its realism. And I felt that both that scene and the scene of Aqualad naming every single one of the team members (brand recognition, yo!) felt completely unrealistic. And it's not unusual for fiction at all, which is probably why I'm the only one with the problem with it. But I don't think it's something people SHOULD just accept as a matter of course, and I think maybe people SHOULD approach scenes like those with skepticism.

The problem with the so-called realism of the show is that the supposed realism deals with the practical logistics of when and how things happened, and how like real life things never get resolved and life goes on. For the record, I don't believe either of those ideas are good or necessary things. But even if I did, I think the writing of scene like the one at the end goes against that entire philosophy.

One of the traits of Weisman's shows is that he's the magician who shows you how he pulled off the trick after the big reveal, and makes you impressed in hindsight at his super early foreshadowing. And honestly? I would much rather have story and character arcs resolved than hear detailed exposition as to how the team pull the wool over the Light's eyes at the end of the season or vice versa. I think it's perfectly fine to leave minutia up like that for debate in a realistic franchise. The realism in fact, demands it. Real people don't talk in exposition as if there is phantom third party out there learning every piece of pertinent information conveniently all at once. I felt like the exposition in the last scene not only seemed to be only for the benefit of the audience, but done to sort of set up a future surprise plot twist that will make us think the writers are geniuses in hindsight in a couple of years.

But was it a good scene? Was it a good resolution to the episode? Are scenes like that why people watch the show? I'd argue no on all three counts.

George Lucas could probably convincingly argue why the boring Senate scenes in the prequel trilogy are necessary to the arc of the Star Wars mythology. And truthfully they may actually be. But they are also boring as hell and nobody likes them. And Lucas got deserved crap for that. Young Justice has tons of dry scenes like that every single week and nobody says boo.

As far as surprise twists go, I'm a Twin Peaks guy. The shock of the twist is what matters to me, not the details behind the shocking twist. In fact, as Twin Peaks shows, there is a certain appeal in the viewer having to come up with their own explanations for whatever weird things they are seeing. I'm not saying Young Justice should be as ambiguous as Twin Peaks. But I also feel the show should be less afraid of questions on Ask Greg piling up, and more concerned with the audience being able to enjoy the ride. I am not a teacher in school demanding the writers show their work. I am willing to let what the characters say and do stand on its own without having to check the actual math.

And if the show IS going to be realistic, and never have a satisfying ending, and just keep going and going, really the only thing I ask is to enjoy the ride. And if the show is just going to do unrealistically expositional dialogue so the writers can say "I told you so!" a couple of seasons down the line, the show isn't meeting my minimum standard. And I think that's my problem. And maybe nobody wants to hear some joker on the internet harshing their mellow every week. But hopefully this explanation here will make you understand my reservations about this specific type of storytelling are serious and real, and I'm not just trolling for negative attention. I have fundamental disagreements with the show and the fans of what makes a good story and what is an acceptable way to tell one. And maybe if I can enjoy the ride my inner nitpicker can be shut off for a week. The Newsgirl Legion this episode says that was going to be a tall order for this episode, even before the frustratingly boring, anticlimactic ending.

Edit:

Has anybody here seen the movie The Sting? Very intricate scamming and grifting going on over there, and one of the most pleasurable things about the movie is that they don't actually explain the details at the end about how Redford and Newman pulled off the con they did. Just the fact that they did is awesome enough and I am satisfied with that. Be like The Sting, Young Justice. Your show will be better for it.

A little ragtime never hurt anybody either.

Edit 2:

While I'm on the subject, can I just point out that I think "Ask Greg" is probably a bad idea and has been for awhile now? It presupposes the fans are entitled to answers from Weisman about the television he produces, and that we shouldn't have to put in any of the work ourselves. Maybe the best solution to keep Ask Greg questions from piling up or having everybody repeat the same questions is just to shut it down.
 
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Frontier

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I'm sort of sitting with the last episode a bit, and wondering why I disliked it when it seems to have gotten a positive reception from everyone else. My opinion was so unusual Yojimbo asked me why I bothered watching the show. Am I trolling at this point?

And the thing is I don't think I am. I didn't go into huge detail about the problems I mentioned, including overexplaining things and overly complicated endings, but maybe if I talk a little about those ideas outside of my review you'll kind of dig why I not feeling the... word I'm not giving the show.

The last scene bugs the crap out of me. Everything about it is wrong. I don't just say it as a viewer, I say it as an aspiring writer. And it's fact that nobody else sees it as wrong and accepts is as matter of course, which is why I always seem to be unhappy with what I watch, while nobody else gets the crap bugged out of them on a routine basis.

I think the thing that gets me is that supposedly one of Young Justice's selling points is its realism. And I felt that both that scene and the scene of Aqualad naming every single one of the team members (brand recognition, yo!) felt completely unrealistic. And it's not unusual for fiction at all, which is probably why I'm the only one with the problem with it. But I don't think it's something people SHOULD just accept as a matter of course, and I think maybe people SHOULD approach scenes like those with skepticism.

The problem with the so-called realism of the show is that the supposed realism deals with the practical logistics of when and how things happened, and how like real life things never get resolved and life goes on. For the record, I don't believe either of those ideas are good or necessary things. But even if I did, I think the writing of scene like the one at the end goes against that entire philosophy.

One of the traits of Weisman's shows is that he's the magician who shows you how he pulled off the trick after the big reveal, and makes you impressed in hindsight at his super early foreshadowing. And honestly? I would much rather have story and character arcs resolved than hear detailed exposition as to how the team pull the wool over the Light's eyes at the end of the season or vice versa. I think it's perfectly fine to leave minutia up like that for debate in a realistic franchise. The realism in fact, demands it. Real people don't talk in exposition as if there is phantom third party out there learning every piece of pertinent information conveniently all at once. I felt like the exposition in the last scene not only seemed to be only for the benefit of the audience, but done to sort of set up a future surprise plot twist that will make us think the writers are geniuses in hindsight in a couple of years.

But was it a good scene? Was it a good resolution to the episode? Are scenes like that why people watch the show? I'd argue no on all three counts.

George Lucas could probably convincingly argue why the boring Senate scenes in the prequel trilogy are necessary to the arc of the Star Wars mythology. And truthfully they may actually be. But they are also boring as hell and nobody likes them. And Lucas got deserved crap for that. Young Justice has tons of dry scenes like that every single week and nobody says boo.

As far as surprise twists go, I'm a Twin Peaks guy. The shock of the twist is what matters to me, not the details behind the shocking twist. In fact, as Twin Peaks shows, there is a certain appeal in the viewer having to come up with their own explanations for whatever weird things they are seeing. I'm not saying Young Justice should be as ambiguous as Twin Peaks. But I also feel the show should be less afraid of questions on Ask Greg piling up, and more concerned with the audience being able to enjoy the ride. I am not a teacher in school demanding the writers show their work. I am willing to let what the characters say and do stand on its own without having to check the actual math.

And if the show IS going to be realistic, and never have a satisfying ending, and just keep going and going, really the only thing I ask is to enjoy the ride. And if the show is just going to do unrealistically expositional dialogue so the writers can say "I told you so!" a couple of seasons down the line, the show isn't meeting my minimum standard. And I think that's my problem. And maybe nobody wants to hear some joker on the internet harshing their mellow every week. But hopefully this explanation here will make you understand my reservations about this specific type of storytelling are serious and real, and I'm not just trolling for negative attention. I have fundamental disagreements with the show and the fans of what makes a good story and what is an acceptable way to tell one. And maybe if I can enjoy the ride my inner nitpicker can be shut off for a week. The Newsgirl Legion this episode says that was going to be a tall order for this episode, even before the frustratingly boring, anticlimactic ending.

Edit:

Has anybody here seen the movie The Sting? Very intricate scamming and grifting going on over there, and one of the most pleasurable things about the movie is that they don't actually explain the details at the end about how Redford and Newman pulled off the con they did. Just the fact that they did is awesome enough and I am satisfied with that. Be like The Sting, Young Justice. Your show will be better for it.

A little ragtime never hurt anybody either.

Edit 2:

While I'm on the subject, can I just point out that I think "Ask Greg" is probably a bad idea and has been for awhile now? It presupposes the fans are entitled to answers from Weisman about the television he produces, and that we shouldn't have to put in any of the work ourselves. Maybe the best solution to keep Ask Greg questions from piling up or having everybody repeat the same questions is just to shut it down.
I thought it made sense if only on the level of a briefing between the Anti-Light, especially Wonder Woman since she's in space. It was also probably the only way they could've worked in Lagoon Boy and Garth's cameo.

I like Ask Greg since I think it's a good attempt at fan outreach even if it also seems to just pile on more work for Weisman, and it helps expand on things or get more into Mr. Weisman's head space :).
 

ShadowStar

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I thought it made sense if only on the level of a briefing between the Anti-Light, especially Wonder Woman since she's in space. It was also probably the only way they could've worked in Lagoon Boy and Garth's cameo.

I like Ask Greg since I think it's a good attempt at fan outreach even if it also seems to just pile on more work for Weisman, and it helps expand on things or get more into Mr. Weisman's head space :).
That didn’t look like Garth - it looked like a much older character. Garth was last seen in the United Nations scene in “Royal We” - maybe we’ll see more of that setting again soon!
 

Yojimbo

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I thought it was him. They were wearing a blue costume like Garth did.

Might need to re-watch the episode to check :sweat:.
It looked more like the uniform of the Royal Guard. They were in the Atlantis episode in season 1. I figured after Aquaman and L'Gaan arrested Ugly, they had Royal Guard stationed around the ship until a group decision could be made what to do about it. Come to think of it, I guess Kaldur's rank in Atlantis is comparable to head of security and/or general now?

EDIT: Vietti confirmed that was Wyynde, a character introduced during the tie-in comic series.
 
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Frontier

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It looked more like the uniform of the Royal Guard. They were in the Atlantis episode in season 1. I figured after Aquaman and L'Gaan arrested Ugly, they had Royal Guard stationed around the ship until a group decision could be made what to do about it. Come to think of it, I guess Kaldur's rank in Atlantis is comparable to head of security and/or general now?
It kind of makes you wonder what Aquaman's role in the kingdom is when he's not the King, especially when Kaldur seems predominantly focused on League stuff.

I guess general defender of the deep?
EDIT: Vietti confirmed that was Wyynde, a character introduced during the tie-in comic series.
Ah, cool! More Aquaman lore and tie-in love and it's even more obscure :cool:.
 

Yojimbo

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Young Justice: Outsiders continues today at 5am (PST)/ 8am (EST) on DC Universe! Show your support for Young Justice: Outsiders on Twitter by live-tweeting #YoungJustice, #DCUYoungJustice, and #YoungJusticeOutsiders to @TheDCUniverse during today's episodes!

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Young Justice: Outsiders
Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - "#64
Early Warning"
Synopsis: Project Rutabaga threatens to create an international crisis for the Outsiders.

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DBTrilogy100

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I had just managed to catch up with the 4 episodes of the second half of Young Justice's 3rd Season that have been released so far, so I figured I would share some quick thoughts about them before the rest of them are released.

"Influence" gave us a chance to see more of some of the Apokolips characters, as well as showing what the Justice League members in space have been up to lately. It was also nice to hear about Troia & Tempest since they've had such little screen time in comparison to other characters. Hro Talak and Lena Luthor having appearances of some kind were cool surprises to me. I liked how we got to hear Guy Gardner, Hawkman & Hawkwoman talk in this episode.

"Leverage" was my first exposure to characters that I wasn't really familiar with before hand; the Rocket Reds and Windfall/Wendy Jones, being those particular characters and I didn't recognize the name of the new Warden of Belle Reve. A part of me is curious if there's a chance for Red Star to show up in the future but I suppose time will tell with that detail. This version of Livewire seems to be less antagonistic than her usual portrayal, I'm not too familiar with Mist so I'm not sure if that's the case for her too. I liked seeing Ed Dorado Jr. play a big role in the sub-plot since I feel the Runaways were characters with potential that were a missed opportunity. I liked seeing Black Manta return and acknowledgment of his grudge with Tigress and the tension with his son. Amanda Waller's return and the arrival of the Suicide Squad/TaskForce X brought back memories of the DCAU's Cadmus Saga.

"Illusion of Control" is Season 3's Thanksgiving episode and felt more like an "ensemble episode" while Season 1's Thanksgiving episode focused on Superboy (for the A Plot, anyway). I liked that we got to see more of Thirteen and found her interactions with Blue Beetle pretty cute since it reminds me of a couple I know; Beast Boy & Perdita's bond continues to be heart warming and I found it nice to see Perdita having more screen time since it gives us a better understanding of her character. The twist about Psimon and Devastation caught me by surprise, I initially thought Henchy gained meta-gene powers. I caught the callback to "Misplaced" with the Crock Family mixing up nursery rhymes & songs and Paula brings up what some fans were thinking about the possibility of Will and Artemis as a couple.

"First Impressions" references Season 2/the "Reach Saga" and also changes the status quo in a notable way. Beast Boy is one of my favorite characters in the show, so I am glad to see him gain a more prevalent role after being on the back burner for most of Season 2 and Wonder Girl joining his team gives me hope that she will gain a more prevalent role in the future since she was another Season 2 character that I grew to like and was disappointed that she was put on the back burner. I'm not too familiar with the Outsiders in the source material, so I didn't catch the similarities and differences with the Outsiders in this adaptation; I do think it is poetic justice that Granny Goodness is funding the Outsiders without realizing it. The Scooby-Doo references were fun, especially the ones to Scooby-Doo: Mystery Incorporated since that is my favorite adaptation from the franchise; Troy Baker did a great job imitating Patrick Warburton. The voices for the Newsgirl Legion didn't really bother me like it did others, maybe they were a bit over-the-top but I took that as part of the Scooby-Doo references and took them in good fun; it probably helps that I rarely (if ever) feel the show's voice acting is "bad", I might say the characters sound like "Average Joes"/"Average Janes" at worst.

All in all, I am glad to see Season 3 is starting up again and since it looks like we'll be getting one episode a week, I will be switching back to my "main style" of looking over the episode (a recap with thoughts at the end). Some of these episodes give me hope that certain characters will have a chance to shine in the future since I do feel the main flaw of the show is characters with potential being missed opportunities. The detailed explanations never really bothered me too much since I consider over-explaining to be the "lesser evil" compared to under-explaining, It probably helps that I am a detail oriented person and have had a history of having to throughly outline certain things to people I know in real life; that might also be why the senate scenes in the Prequel Trilogy actually never bothered me, although it also helps that I can enjoy the Prequel Trilogy for what it is (flaws and alls) and feel it gets more hate than it really deserves (I prefer it over The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi). In any case, I think it just goes to show that different people have different ways their minds are structured, some people prefer one style of explanation while other people prefer a different style of explanation.