"Young Justice" News & Discussion Thread, Part 31 (Spoilers)

[Medinnus]

Overall, it's gotten pretty quiet since the focus will probably be on the live action Doom Patrol series.

I would love to see what the usage statistics look like; while I am really only there to support Young Justice, I wish there was a way to let the site know that the only thing of value that makes the subscription worth paying is YJ. I would love to see a breakdown of the hit analysis.

 

[Yojimbo]

Thought it was cool but Phil Bourassa's wife made him a Forager plushie for Valentine's Day.

 

[Frontier]

Thought it was cool but Phil Bourassa's wife made him a Forager plushie for Valentine's Day.

That's so adorable and sweet .

And surprisingly show-accurate .

 

[the greenman]

Thought it was cool but Phil Bourassa's wife made him a Forager plushie for Valentine's Day.

Wow, a power with talent.☺ that would be worth something in the future.

 

[SweetShop209]

Thought it was cool but Phil Bourassa's wife made him a Forager plushie for Valentine's Day.

That's both cute and sweet.

 

[Fone Bone]

Weisman and Vietti are rather adamant that Wally died and that will stick which is why I thought a clone might be an exception to their stance. But with "Nightmare Monkeys" they showed another way he could appear again.

I've been thinking about this. I haven't seen the new season yet, but it strikes me that Weisman and Vietti's stubborness about this specific "death" is a bit ludicrous. I do agree with Weisman very much that if a character dies sacrificing themselves for everyone else, that they shouldn't be brought back to life because it cheapens the sacrifice. Here is why I don't believe that notion applies to Wally in this instance, and why I think Weisman is delusional if he does. But it boils down to two reasons.

1. It was a pretty cheap-ass sacrifice to begin with. The episode didn't need it to function, and Wally could have made it out alive and no viewer would have known or cared about the difference. It had not been something that had been building throughout the season, and happened due to a circumstance that was entirely tacked on to give the episode additional unearned weight. It felt completely random. Maybe real-life death actually is, and that's the real moral. But it sure as hell was NOT an unimpeachable sacrifice that tugged at my heartstrings. It actually annoyed me. Part of me thinks less of Wally for doing what he always does and simply not surviving like he always has until now. He's gotten out of much worse scrapes before, so even if the death WAS a sacrifice, it was still beneath him, and a crappy way to go out.

2. We didn't see a body. The question fans were asking Weisman that he was getting annoyed with was "Is Wally really dead?" That's an entirely different question than "Are you going to bring Wally back from the dead?" Considering the nature of the Speed Force, and that various Flashes in various stories have been known to disappear after running too fast, seeming to be killed, and actually turning out to be alive and trapped in the speed force instead, is Weisman really surprised at our skepticism? If he really wanted us to think Wally was dead, he should have lobbied CN to actually allow him to show him being killed off. Even using the type of death he did, which is a known speedster fake-out death in DC properties, means he cannot be surprised that we think he's still out there.

I haven't seen Outsiders yet, Yojimbo. Are my feelings here off-base?

 

[Yojimbo]

It was a pretty cheap-ass sacrifice to begin with. The episode didn't need it to function, and Wally could have made it out alive and no viewer would have known or cared about the difference.

I disagree, if Wally survived it would have cheapened the finale. That situation exposed his weakness, but he relented anyway to make sure the world was saved. The bigger point was they all sign up for "the mission" accepting the possibility and likelihood that they can die at any point. The stakes increased in Invasion.

It had not been something that had been building throughout the season, and happened due to a circumstance that was entirely tacked on to give the episode additional unearned weight. It felt completely random.

That's a natural reaction to have relative to just the second season since Wally was reduced to a recurring role. Though it possible to counter argue that. One example, Wally was worried about Artemis getting killed during the op, which should have been a red flag to the audience that it was Wally who was really doomed. But relative to the entire series (at the time), it felt less tacked on, imo. For instance, we know why the crew decided his speed powers were set to be weaker to the Flash's. They stated the power set from the start. That did several things on several fronts like making sure he wasn't overpowered but creates that possibility that in an extreme situation, this weakness could be exploited and he would have to choose between his life or the greater good.

Part of me thinks less of Wally for doing what he always does and simply not surviving like he always has until now. He's gotten out of much worse scrapes before, so even if the death WAS a sacrifice, it was still beneath him, and a crappy way to go out.

It was heroic to me. It was the equivalent of jumping on the live grenade to save everyone else, everyone else being the planet and all its inhabitants.

We didn't see a body.

Valid. It's certainly a trope in TV and movies.

Considering the nature of the Speed Force, and that various Flashes in various stories have been known to disappear after running too fast, seeming to be killed, and actually turning out to be alive and trapped in the speed force instead, is Weisman really surprised at our skepticism?

No Speed Force in this canon.

I haven't seen Outsiders yet, Yojimbo. Are my feelings here off-base?

Eh, 50:50.

 

[Frontier]

I dunno. I can kind of see why they did it to Wally specifically, but at the same time it felt like kind of a waste of his character, and someone of his stature, to take him out like that. Especially when he really didn't get to do much in season 2 in general (and you could potentially make the argument he's gotten the least to do of the entire original Team overall).

Like, Wally was the first sidekick to take over from his mentor and then went on to surpass him and make the Flash identity his own, and a lot of the elements synonymous with the Flash mythos came from his run in the comics. And then he just gets killed off as Kid Flash because he's slower then Barry and Bart? Something they felt they had to emphasize, probably specifically to foreshadow his death? Just feels like a bit of a disservice to the character in my opinion.

If they had made the whole "slower then Barry" element something he could get over and overcome, especially once he became Flash, that would be different and truer to the character for my money. But basically it was used as a reasoning to kill him off, which just kind of bothers me.

But that's just my two cents on it.

 

[Light Lucario]

It's been awhile since I've seen season two, but I thought that Wally sacrificing himself added some more emotional and dramatic weight to the finale. It was a major disaster and the heroes not being able to save the day without some sacrifices kind of felt fitting. I don't know how much Wally was able to do in both seasons, but he was pretty likable and in a happy relationship with Artemis, so if they wanted to "kill" off one of the established characters, he was a good choice in that the audience could care about him and how his sacrifice would impact the other characters. Granted, I think part of the reason why they did that was to help make the season end on an even bigger cliffhanger in the hopes that Cartoon Network would pick for a third season, but that obviously didn't happen.

With that in mind, I do think it would be a poor choice to not bring Wally back. Yeah, bringing characters back from the dead can ruin or cheapen their sacrifices, but this is a superhero series. Characters come back from the dead in the comics all the time. They also likely have Jason Todd back from the dead based on this half of the season. Although, to be fair, Jason coming back from the dead to become the Red Hood is pretty well established at this point too. Still, I think it would be more fitting to have Wally somehow come back. There could still be some thematic weight to his sacrifice or show that he wasn't exactly dead all this time. Considering how many fans want him back after waiting for the series to return, I just think it would be disappointing to refuse to bring him back with that reasoning.

 

[the greenman]

Well, the way I see it, we all know how much Weisman doesn't like "spoilers". I feel this action was a specific choice, as he simply didn't want to retread something he did already. Ref:

Spoiler

the Brave & the Bold episode "Reqium for a Speedster".

 

[Frontier]

With that in mind, I do think it would be a poor choice to not bring Wally back. Yeah, bringing characters back from the dead can ruin or cheapen their sacrifices, but this is a superhero series. Characters come back from the dead in the comics all the time. They also likely have Jason Todd back from the dead based on this half of the season. Although, to be fair, Jason coming back from the dead to become the Red Hood is pretty well established at this point too. Still, I think it would be more fitting to have Wally somehow come back. There could still be some thematic weight to his sacrifice or show that he wasn't exactly dead all this time. Considering how many fans want him back after waiting for the series to return, I just think it would be disappointing to refuse to bring him back with that reasoning.

And Wally West also has a long history of coming back from (perceived) death .

 

[Yojimbo]

Characters come back from the dead in the comics all the time. They also likely have Jason Todd back from the dead based on this half of the season.

The issue with Jason is we never saw his supposed death, we're just led to assume he died or even aspects of the traditional comic book storyline were used. So it in a sense, it's not the same situation if Wally were to be resurrected.

 

[ShadowStar]

Well, the way I see it, we all know how much Weisman doesn't like "spoilers". I feel this action was a specific choice, as he simply didn't want to retread something he did already. Ref:

Spoiler

the Brave & the Bold episode "Reqium for a Speedster".

I’m glad you brought up that episode - it highlights the fact that Greg Weisman has revisited a lot of content that he explored in his Brave and the Bold episodes - we’ve seen Captain Marvel, Blockbuster, Mongul and the War World, the Flash Family, the Outsiders, Kobra and Captain Atom in this show. Makes we wonder whether an appearance from Catwoman or the Bat-Men of All Nations will happen in Young Justice at some point! And we’ve yet to see Steppenwolf, haven’t we...?

 

[Yojimbo]

Makes we wonder whether an appearance from Catwoman or the Bat-Men of All Nations will happen in Young Justice at some point! And we’ve yet to see Steppenwolf, haven’t we...?

No Steppenwolf yet.

 

[Frontier]

No Steppenwolf yet.

Or Kanto and Vundabar, at least as far as the usual Apokolips regulars go...well, them and the Furies .

(I wonder if Barda's already jumped ship at this point in the timeline).

 

[Yojimbo]

I'd wager we'll see more them real soon.

 

[Marvelman02]

No Speed Force in this canon.

I have a Masters in English so I like to infer and read between the lines and look closely at what is said vs. what is not said. Greg Weisman has said he doesn't like the concept of the speed-force, but that is different from saying there is no speed-force in the YJ universe. I'm just saying Greg has not specifically ruled it out. There is still some wiggle room in his statement.

This is a wild guess for the end of the season: Connor is critically injured and put in to suspended animation until a means can be found to heal his injuries. The Legion and Wally, having travelled through time to 1000 years in the future, revive him in the 31st century.

 

[Yojimbo]

I have a Masters in English so I like to infer and read between the lines and look closely at what is said vs. what is not said. Greg Weisman has said he doesn't like the concept of the speed-force, but that is different from saying there is no speed-force in the YJ universe. I'm just saying Greg has not specifically ruled it out. There is still some wiggle room in his statement.

Just so it doesn't become a thing, both of our interpretations are technically correct. Between 2011 and 2013, his replies on Ask Greg have varied from

1. "There is no Speed Force on Earth-16"
2. "We didn't get rid of it. It was never there."
3. "Again, if folks want to think that Earth-16 has the speed - force , but no one on the planet knows about it, then I'm fine with that compromise"
4. "Having said that, I'll simply repeat what I've stated before: if you love the Speed - Force and want to believe it exists on Earth-16, then may the speed - force be with you. All I've stated categorically is that no one on Earth-16 has ever heard of the Speed - Force . But the fact that no one's heard of it, doesn't in and of itself mean it doesn't exist."

 

[AdrenalineRush1996]

Given that the title of the Outsiders finale is "Nevermore", I do hope Raven does appear but that's just me. Same with maybe introducing Starfire (one of the two of the NTT roster to have not appeared in the show with the one being Rachel while Dick, Wally, Donna, Garfield and Victor have), Omen (one of the three from the classic Titans era to have not appeared outside the comics with the other two being Duela and Charley while Dick, Wally, Garth, Donna, Roy, Hank, Don, Malcolm, Karen, Garfield, John, Tula and Bette have) and Empress (the only one from the original seven of the YJ roster in the comics to have not appeared in the show while Conner, Bart, Tim, Cassie, Greta and Cissie have).

 

[Marvelman02]

Just so it doesn't become a thing, both of our interpretations are technically correct. Between 2011 and 2013, his replies on Ask Greg have varied from

1. "There is no Speed Force on Earth-16"
2. "We didn't get rid of it. It was never there."
3. "Again, if folks want to think that Earth-16 has the speed - force , but no one on the planet knows about it, then I'm fine with that compromise"
4. "Having said that, I'll simply repeat what I've stated before: if you love the Speed - Force and want to believe it exists on Earth-16, then may the speed - force be with you. All I've stated categorically is that no one on Earth-16 has ever heard of the Speed - Force . But the fact that no one's heard of it, doesn't in and of itself mean it doesn't exist."

Well, this is a lot more definitive than what I've read. All I have heard Greg say is that he doesn't like the idea of a speed force. But this new evidence does seem to put a nail in the whole speed force thing. However, we know time travel exists so that is still possible.