Which DCAU Season Is Considered The Best and Which DCAU Season Is Considered The Worst?

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

You know, after re-watching Batman Beyond on Blu-ray, I found myself enjoying the season 2 episodes quite a bit. Sure, the loss of Blight was a pretty big blow, but the show was still full of great action, engaging storylines and continued development for Terry. I quite liked the Max character as well.

Season 3 was more of a mixed bag for sure. But any season that contains 'King's Ransom', 'Out of the Past' and 'Speak No Evil' can't be all bad. Yes... I did enjoy 'Speak No Evil'.

To be honest, if there was any season that took me some time to warm to it would be the final 13 episodes of JLU. It felt like the team was spinning their wheels a little bit post Cadmus.

 

[b.t.]

Well, this Starro wasn't really a super sentient o.p. supervllain like he is in the comics. Just an animal that got kidnapped and was trying to save itself albeit with its own convoluted logic. I took it since Starro was entering the final phase of its plan, he was working to making Batman (and later Bruce) part of Team Starro and would have taken him to the Fortress of Solitude and implanted him but stuck to the sequence of taking out who he considered his biggest threats first and thinking Batman would serve a dual purpose of giving his targets a distraction to focus on during the tension created by the attack on Micron instead of investigating and hopefully mess up the team dynamic that could be used to blame on more of them dying in the field. It then became another instance of 'insert name DC villain underestimates the main cast' writing where Starro got sloppy and didn't anticipate the Batmobile or Bruce would unravel things while he tried to take out Warhawk. And everything fell apart from there but luckily Aquagirl's empathy saved his bacon.

This is exactly the reason why I stopped defending “plot holes” in my shows on online forums. I realized that more often than not, some fan will come up with a FAR better explanation / rationalization than I ever could myself. Holy Mackerel, the above is a doozy— well done, sir!

I’m not sure I buy it 100% but I also don’t think it matters.

Villains often do dumb things. Goldfinger invites a bunch of hoods over to his house, tells them his plan for robbing Fort Knox (complete with expensive, super-elaborate visual aids), asks if they want in and then kills them all when they say “no thanks”. If he doesn’t really need their help, why offer to cut them in on his scheme in the first place? Because it was a fun way to let the audience (and 007) know what his Diabolical Plot was. Works for me!

The first time I watched “The Call” in Joe Gall’s editing bay, I realized that having Starro/Superman bringing in Batman to find the traitor in the League was kinda bananas. Someone (Joe or Alan or Glen or Butch, I don’t remember, it could even have been me) suggested it could be Superman subtly fighting Starro’s mind control — and Starro either didn’t realize Superman was asserting control or thought Teenage Batman was too dumb to be a real threat and went along with it. Sure, it’s all hand-wavy BS but everything else in the two/parter is so much fun, so — works for me!

 

[Ed Nygma]

I really like The Call part 1, part 2 is okay but the mystery and payoff are really well done. What holds it back is actually the recast of McDonald over Daly- I thought Tim Daly back as Superman would've really sold it, and made the betrayal more surprising. But when he's voiced by a different guy right off the bat- and Shooter McGavin, no less- it did kind of telegraph that something was amiss. On the flip side, Stockard Channing sounded absolutely nothing like either Melissa Gilbert or Strong, but she was so good that I really missed her in season 3 and RotJ. Even if Angie Harmon 'matched' more. Oh Rizzo, why couldn't they get you to do one episode and DTV for a perfect run?

Agree with Pfeiffer-pfan about JLU season 2 (or 3, whatever it is). It feels extraneous after Cadmus/Epilogue was so definitive. This is kind of when the series was at its "McDuffiest" with the Legion of Doom hijinks etc- I really disliked the bait and switch with John and Shyera, get rid of Vixen and get on with it already if the show is ending! Obviously Darkseid's return is a must, but it only gets one episode and then we're done for good. I wonder what the team would have done with one more set of 13 episodes, it made no sense to me that CN renewed it for 13 instead of a full 26 or stopping with Epilogue.

 

[Fone Bone]

The first time I watched “The Call” in Joe Gall’s editing bay, I realized that having Starro/Superman bringing in Batman to find the traitor in the League was kinda bananas. Someone (Joe or Alan or Glen or Butch, I don’t remember, it could even have been me) suggested it could be Superman subtly fighting Starro’s mind control — and Starro either didn’t realize Superman was asserting control or thought Teenage Batman was too dumb to be a real threat and went along with it. Sure, it’s all hand-wavy BS but everything else in the two/parter is so much fun, so — works for me!

I always thought that could have been a secret potential DC "No Prize" explanation to sort of explain why Superman did something that dumb. Him subconsciously fighting back is a good notion and it always struck me as so.

Which is why the episode gets major demerits for not broaching it themselves. If Starro has been on Superman for years, and Superman has been secretly fighting back, he deserves that specific credit in the episode itself, especially considering this has been going on for years. Since the No-Prize explanation that was given to Mr. Timm during production didn't actually make it into the episode, it means the episode's a mess instead. You can rattle off excuses for plot holes in hindsight all you want. If it isn't brought up in the episode itself, it's an actual failing.

Also, b.t., you may appreciate the fact that some fans are able to rationalize poor storytelling better than you are able to. But that should not be our job. Yojimbo's a good egg, which is why he gives that episode the benefit of the doubt. My perspective is that that specific episode does not deserve that level of benefit of the doubt. In my humble opinion.

 

[b.t.]

I really like The Call part 1, part 2 is okay but the mystery and payoff are really well done. What holds it back is actually the recast of McDonald over Daly- I thought Tim Daly back as Superman would've really sold it, and made the betrayal more surprising. But when he's voiced by a different guy right off the bat- and Shooter McGavin, no less- it did kind of telegraph that something was amiss. On the flip side, Stockard Channing sounded absolutely nothing like either Melissa Gilbert or Strong, but she was so good that I really missed her in season 3 and RotJ. Even if Angie Harmon 'matched' more. Oh Rizzo, why couldn't they get you to do one episode and DTV for a perfect run?

Agree with Pfeiffer-pfan about JLU season 2 (or 3, whatever it is). It feels extraneous after Cadmus/Epilogue was so definitive. This is kind of when the series was at its "McDuffiest" with the Legion of Doom hijinks etc- I really disliked the bait and switch with John and Shyera, get rid of Vixen and get on with it already if the show is ending! Obviously Darkseid's return is a must, but it only gets one episode and then we're done for good. I wonder what the team would have done with one more set of 13 episodes, it made no sense to me that CN renewed it for 13 instead of a full 26 or stopping with Epilogue.

Well, Tim was unavailable to play Superman in “The Call” so that was beyond our control. Despite having never seen “Happy Gilmore” I’m a huge fan of Christopher McDonald’s, I thought he was great as Jor-el on our Superman series and the idea of Superman starting to sound like his father as he got older made all kinds of sense to me. So, there you go.

I learned a long time ago, you can’t please everybody.

 

[-batmat-]

@Fone Bone , I appreciate the honesty you display in this forum when speaking out about things you don't like. But I think you should be a bit more respectful, because some of the actual people behind all these series and movies are actually here, reading and discussing with us. And they even know that some of the stuff they did isn't the best in the world.

If you're an artist or creative person of some kind, you know the amount of work you have to put for anything that people don't see in the final product, so despite the final product not being the best, there's always an amount of work that was done that deserves its fair share of respect.

Back on topic, Superman having the same VA as Jor-El was a great idea imo. It is very different from Tim or George but the logic checks out if you consider this is an older Superman who sounds like his father. I wouldn't pick any parts of "The Call" as my favorite episodes, but it did have some very neat moments like that small chat Superman and old Bruce in the bat cave.

 

[Yojimbo]

I rewatch JLU season 2 the most so I guess that's my pick for best season. I mean, from Question Authority to Epilogue is a frequent rewatch of mine. The Flash saving the world from Brainiac and Luthor is still so awesome. It was certainly the most serial.

Worst. Hmm. That's a tough one. I rewatch Static Shock season 4 and Zeta Project season 2 the least. I don't remember why but when I first watched those episodes, it felt like it was hampered by studio interference and the episodes for the most part came out lopsided.

 

[Raider969]

@Fone Bone , I appreciate the honesty you display in this forum when speaking out about things you don't like. But I think you should be a bit more respectful, because some of the actual people behind all these series and movies are actually here, reading and discussing with us. And they even know that some of the stuff they did isn't the best in the world.

If you're an artist or creative person of some kind, you know the amount of work you have to put for anything that people don't see in the final product, so despite the final product not being the best, there's always an amount of work that was done that deserves its fair share of respect.

Back on topic, Superman having the same VA as Jor-El was a great idea imo. It is very different from Tim or George but the logic checks out if you consider this is an older Superman who sounds like his father. I wouldn't pick any parts of "The Call" as my favorite episodes, but it did have some very neat moments like that small chat Superman and old Bruce in the bat cave.

The Call happens to be my favorite episodes of Batman Beyond, just because Superman and the future Justice League are in it.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Despite our feelings on individual seasons, I have to say I am always amazed at how rewatchable the DCAU is. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the shows and it's still a joy revisiting them.

I recently started watching Gargoyles on Disney+, and while undoubtedly a well made show, it is an absolute slog to get through. I'm struggling to stick with it.

Meanwhile, I jumped back in to another B:TAS marathon and I'm already half way through the initial 65 episodes, enjoying every minute of it. Truly a show for the ages.

 

[Fone Bone]

@Fone Bone , I appreciate the honesty you display in this forum when speaking out about things you don't like. But I think you should be a bit more respectful, because some of the actual people behind all these series and movies are actually here, reading and discussing with us. And they even know that some of the stuff they did isn't the best in the world.

If you're an artist or creative person of some kind, you know the amount of work you have to put for anything that people don't see in the final product, so despite the final product not being the best, there's always an amount of work that was done that deserves its fair share of respect.

First of all, I AM an artist and creative person. I LOVE talking about what does and doesn't work with Gilda And Meek. There are a ton of failings in my comic (mostly to do with artwork) and I love debating whether the project is all right even with shady artwork or if I'm abusing the comic book format and worse than Hitler and Homer Simpson smoking two cigarettes at the DMV.

But...But... I suspect my opinion there might be unusual compared to other creators, so you are absolutely right that I need to be more respectful of other creators who might not share it. As such as I respectfully apologize to @b.t. and want him to be aware that I don't think any less of him for The Call. Hell, I don't think any less of him for Batman And Harley Quinn either. I respect (or more accurately LOVE) creators who have so-so and even BAD episodes in the mix of their great cartoons and TV shows. I distrust art and entertainment that appears "perfect". I haven't seen either Breaking Bad or The Wire yet, simply because I've heard them both described as perfect series and perfection in television doesn't interest me much. Debating the good and the bad is what I love and why I love television.

So keep in mind, b.t., whenever I slam one of your DCAU episodes or movies on this board it still interests me and makes me want to watch it again more than Breaking Bad and The Wire. For the record.

 

[Ed Nygma]

Despite our feelings on individual seasons, I have to say I am always amazed at how rewatchable the DCAU is. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the shows and it's still a joy revisiting them.

I recently started watching Gargoyles on Disney+, and while undoubtedly a well made show, it is an absolute slog to get through. I'm struggling to stick with it.

Meanwhile, I jumped back in to another B:TAS marathon and I'm already half way through the initial 65 episodes, enjoying every minute of it. Truly a show for the ages.

Oh god, Gargoyles. It always gets praised to the high heavens and I just don't get it. I liked it as a kid but what kid by the same token could follow the long complicated continuing plotline? I could barely follow Spider-Man TAS... I think b.t. said it best, I just can't wrap my mind around all the "celtic fantasy crap."

BTW batmat has a point, we could all probably (ie myself) do well to remember people have feelings but even more so when they show up in the thread. I think the DCAU is unique among most creators in that we feel like we know them personally from the years of exposure/all the commentary tracks, in that they don't seem larger than life or unknowable. But of course Dini and McDuffie were obviously gifted writers, when we get opinionated I think we can have a tendency to say things as we would to friends at a gathering. I genuinely love pretty much 90% of the DCAU so I figure any complaints don't outweigh it. If it's something I truly despise on a cellular level (some of the DTVs perhaps) I try to not weigh in.

 

[Yojimbo]

The first time I watched “The Call” in Joe Gall’s editing bay, I realized that having Starro/Superman bringing in Batman to find the traitor in the League was kinda bananas. Someone (Joe or Alan or Glen or Butch, I don’t remember, it could even have been me) suggested it could be Superman subtly fighting Starro’s mind control — and Starro either didn’t realize Superman was asserting control or thought Teenage Batman was too dumb to be a real threat and went along with it. Sure, it’s all hand-wavy BS but everything else in the two/parter is so much fun, so — works for me!

Looks like it was Alan Burnett who told you that in late 2004. Eh, I'd buy it. Superman's had experience with being brainwashed/mind controlled/mentally manipulated and what not over the decades, does gel that he would at least be able to put up some kind of resistance.

a few months back i happened to be discussing The Swiss Cheese That Is "The Call" with alan burnett (i can't for the life of me remember how it came up), and i asked him, "explain to me again why the starro-controlled-superman recruited terry, with the expressed intent of finding out who the traitor was, when he HIMSELF was said traitor?" alan told me with an absolute straight face that it was superman himself (NOT starro) subconsciously fighting starro's influence...i looked at him for a long moment...he grinned, shrugged and said, "yeah, i know...pretty lame, huh?

 

[-batmat-]

Despite our feelings on individual seasons, I have to say I am always amazed at how rewatchable the DCAU is. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the shows and it's still a joy revisiting them.

I recently started watching Gargoyles on Disney+, and while undoubtedly a well made show, it is an absolute slog to get through. I'm struggling to stick with it.

Meanwhile, I jumped back in to another B:TAS marathon and I'm already half way through the initial 65 episodes, enjoying every minute of it. Truly a show for the ages.

Yes! I've decided to rewatch the DCAU after many years too, I've only just started, having seen 13 episodes of BTAS, but it's just so good! The backgrounds are so beautiful, the music so incredible, the voice work legendary! There's no other group of series I've rewatched this much.

As for Gargoyles, for some reason I missed it as a kid, I don't know if it wasn't aired here, or for some reason I just missed it. But I watched it for the first time about 2 years ago and I enjoyed it very much! But I don't feel like I'm gonna rewatch it any time soon.

And just to clarify on my previous post, I don't mean to say that we shouldn't say anything negative. We're all allowed to dislike something and express it, as far as we are respectful about it (in my opinion!)

 

[Fone Bone]

And just to clarify on my previous post, I don't mean to say that we shouldn't say anything negative. We're all allowed to dislike something and express it, as far as we are respectful about it (in my opinion!)

You were right. I tend to view debate about quality in a rather clinical fashion, even regarding my own work, but just because I do, doesn't mean other people do. I have to keep that in mind.

As for Gargoyles, I am put off more by the fandom than the material itself. But truthfully if the material were actually better I could probably tolerate the fandom easier.