"Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy" Series Talkback (Spoilers)

Fone Bone

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Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy: Siege "Episode 1"

Interesting premiere. It's weird it's rated TV-Y7 despite use of the word "ass". But as dark, gritty, and mature as the show is, I appreciate that unlike the Machina and Michael Bay stuff it isn't completely inappropriate for little kids. Now, I doubt they'd like it. But it doesn't seem to be making pains to drive them off with a bunch of dirty dialogue, excessive language, or extreme violence and death. We'll see how the later episodes fare, but that was pretty tolerable as far as violence goes.

I like the idea that in this continuity, the Autobots are the renegades, and the ones playing from a position of weakness. Megatron is fascinating because this version seems cautious, deliberate, and dare I say it, reasonable. In fact Optimus Prime's stubbornness and hotheadedness is a very interesting contrast.

Jetfire starting out as not only a Decepticon, but leader of the Seekers is cool too.

I don't like Bumblebee though. I agree with Megatron that him refusing to wear an Autobot brand means he's a coward. And Bumblebee should NOT be this rough around the edges. He's supposed to be fun-loving and borderline cute. This is the first version I've seen I outright dislike.

But that was a solid first episode. ****.

Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy: Siege "Episode 2"

Wait, Elita is Optimus' mate? Can Transformers even have mates?

Optimus is dumb if he never considered the idea that Ultra Magnus' signal could be hacked.

Bumblebee stealing the Energon at the end was a nice twist.

Solid. ***1/2.

Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy: Siege "Episode 3"

This specific episode gave me a much more accurate feel for the series. Not all of the impressions it gave me were good ones. They were definitely interesting impressions, and could lead to an interesting show, but Lord, some of this stuff makes the Autobots look really bad.

The idea that Autobots used to be autocratic slave-drivers bugs the poo out of me, and tells me that the Decepticon cause was righteous at first, until Megatron took the fascism too far in the other direction. But on some level, the Autobots clearly had this coming.

I also want to point out this version of Optimus is outright stupid. He suggests taking the All-Spark off Cybertron and Elita's all, "You know that'll kill everyone and the planet, right?" And then Optimus immediately says, "We will never let that happen." Um, Optimus, YOU were the one who just suggested that. Literally seconds ago. It's not even instant revisionist history at that point. It more qualifies as diarrhea of the mouth.

I like that Mirage has his hologram superpowers. I also like that this is the first show in ages, possible since the 1980's, to show a wide variety of Transformers. All of the more recent project from Transformers: Animated forward have focused on smaller casts, mostly due to cost cutting measures. I am not saying this animation is blockbuster or anything. But they clearly put up the money to design a large amount of characters, all in the first season. That's pretty cool.

I object to Mirage expressing surprise that Ratchet treats Decepticons for their injuries. Whatever Autobot morality is, they clearly have a backwards view on healthcare if that is considered controversial for a medic. These are supposed to be the good guys?

Megatron's refusal to turn around to allow Magnus to shoot him in the front was brilliant, and was him using Magnus's imaginary sense of honor and real sense of stupidity against him. And Megatron's right. If he weren't actually stupid, he'd have taken the shot, regardless of what it did to his personal honor. This war is bigger than him, and what he thinks about himself. But I think Autobot morality is entirely fudged up on this show.

And just to bring home how stupid Magnus is, he is tortured into revealing the location of the Autobot base. Do you know what could have prevented that? Not being dumb enough to surrender in the first place.

I actually don't think a surrender is out of line, if that's what he was actually doing. It wasn't. He was treating it as a negotiation, and offering to bring Optimus to the table, which is NOT what a surrender is at all. If he was not prepared to order his Autobots troops to stand down, he never should gone there under the guise of surrender. Because he doesn't know or appreciate what that word actually means.

I sincerely want Impactor's claim to want to help and protect Ratchet to be true. And at this point I want very little from this show.

Megatron is quite the effective propagandist. I doubt very much that was the intention behind the guy who came up with, "'Til all are one!".

I like the moral dilemmas the show is raising. The Autobots themselves? Not so much. ***.

Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy: Siege "Episode 4"

More clarifications. It sounds like Optimus was a part of the initial uprising against slavery, but opposed Megatron because Megatron wanted to turn Cybertron into a dictatorship rather than a democracy. I actually love the fact that we are learning this all in bits and pieces, and that we are allowed to raise the questions ourselves until we get a clearer picture.

I still think Optimus is dumb for his statement about not letting the All-Spark be destroyed last episode, but it's clear he simply doesn't believe that part of the myth, and wasn't actually backtracking like I said he was. That being said, I find the perspective entirely foolish. What if he's wrong? He has no way of knowing that until it's too late.

I had been under the impression that Bumblebee was a coward. Instead the Alpha Trion Protocol suggests he's peaceful instead, which also totally explains Ultra Magnus' otherwise dumb behavior. Let us hope Bumblebee is less dumb in his peacekeeping decisions. But not only do the Autobots have Impactor and Jetfire on their side now, it looks like Bumblebee's huge supply of Energon is now within reach too.

This is all good stuff. ****1/2.

Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy: Siege "Episode 5"

What I like about the cliffhanger is that's several super dire cliffhangers at once.

Prowl expresses surprise at being saved by a Decepticon. I would be inclined to say Prowl greatly lacks imagination, but instead it strikes me that perhaps the Autobots have dehumanized and demonized their enemy for so long that Autobots simply have no concept that other people besides them engage in fair play. It borders on disturbing and is totally naive.

Good explanation and excuse for the Soundblaster repaint. A failed Soundwave clone as an experiment of Shockwave's. Yeah, that's the ticket. The fact that we see some of Soundwave's classic toy accessories in use here suggests Hasbro is deeply involved in this project.

"Damn" is also poking at the TV-Y7-ty of it all.

So Bumblebee doesn't have his Energon stash anymore after all? Bummer. Also strikes me as a plothole.

I have my doubts they can wrap this section of the saga up in 23 minutes but I bet I'll enjoy watching them try. ****.

Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy: Siege "Episode 6"

That was bananas! Totally great! I will not go so far as to say this show is as good as Transformers Prime. But it's the only good Transformers cartoon SINCE Transformers Prime. Which also probably makes it the only other good Transformers cartoon period.

Omega Supreme! Are they freaking kidding me? That cliffhanger ending would be dark if I believed for one second that the Ark was destroyed. Instead season 2 is gonna rock.

I feel like Bumblebee's plot with the Protocol didn't go anywhere but that was my minor nitpick of the season.

I've just been peeling onions. Impactor's sacrifice and death has nothing to do with anything.

Totally impressed. A great first season to a very promising show. *****.
 

Dannyboi

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Optimus is dumb if he never considered the idea that Ultra Magnus' signal could be hacked.
Yeah, honestly, I thought the same thing, that was a suprising oversight from Optimus and literally all the other autobots.

They were definitely interesting impressions, and could lead to an interesting show, but Lord, some of this stuff makes the Autobots look really bad.

The idea that Autobots used to be autocratic slave-drivers bugs the poo out of me, and tells me that the Decepticon cause was righteous at first, until Megatron took the fascism too far in the other direction. But on some level, the Autobots clearly had this coming.

I like the moral dilemmas the show is raising. The Autobots themselves? Not so much.
I actually really like that they made the Autobots like this. It makes it more like a real war, a lot more gray than black and white.

I also want to point out this version of Optimus is outright stupid. He suggests taking the All-Spark off Cybertron and Elita's all, "You know that'll kill everyone and the planet, right?" And then Optimus immediately says, "We will never let that happen." Um, Optimus, YOU were the one who just suggested that. Literally seconds ago. It's not even instant revisionist history at that point. It more qualifies as diarrhea of the mouth.
I don't think he was being stupid, I think he knows something we don't.

So Bumblebee doesn't have his Energon stash anymore after all? Bummer. Also strikes me as a plothole.
This isn't a plot hole, they implied that he sold it to Soundblaster right before the Alpha Trion Protocol hit him.

Overall, I agree, it was a good start to the series. My biggest problem with it is that it felt a bit rushed, I wish they had spent some more time on Cybertron really developing the characters and world they had established. With the massive cast they introduced, they didn't have a lot of time for character developement.
 

Gold Guy

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I overall I enjoyed it, but I do wish the episode count was a bit bigger, it's harder to get attached to the characters compared to other Transformers shows. I especially appreciate that it isn't just doing the usual "good vs evil" thing, but instead going a more nuanced route. Even Optimus is allowed to show a bit more emotion than usual.

Bumblebee is a jerk here, but I'm glad to get a different take on the character who isn't the newbie or the comic relief.

They went an interesting direction with Soundblaster, hopefully he gets more to do later.
 

TheVileOne

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I think this season could've done more with another 2 episodes at least, but this is likely the budget and limitations they were dealing with.

I'd say my main issues this season, the final episode ends rather abruptly. Also, barely anyone actually transforms. Weaponizers were only used a couple of times. No Battlemasters. We see only a brief appearance of what looked like Astrotrain I think once, but he doesn't get any action beats.

I hope they will get more money to do more of the eye candy in Season 2/Earthrise.
 

Frontier

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Random thoughts on the trilogy:

- I think the animation and writing were definitely a step up from the Prime Wars trilogy. You can definitely tell that a professional studio did the animation, even if I felt the toy-accurate models could be a little too stiff at times. I don't think the writing was amazing but I appreciate what the story was trying to say and how it adapted things for this iteration of the TF brand in terms of a modern and more serious take on G1 :dexter:.

- The voice acting was fairly uneven as has been the case with the TF cartoons ever since Cyberverse. I'd nominally rate it as passable, with a few performances being generally solid to good, while others ended up sounding not at all appropriate for the characters (Ironhide, Hound, Soundwave, Shockwave). As a whole I also felt like the voices didn't do as good a job of sounding distinct from one another, but this has been a problem I had with Cyberverse as well :(.

- Ha! Wheeljack and Bumblebee hunting for Energon! Just like G1 ;).

- Prime reminded me more of IDW Prime, where he's more self-doubting and regretful leader trying to maintain his hope and idealism in the midst of a hopeless war and no clear answer in sight and barely any support system that doesn't also make him feel equally guilty about every choice he makes. Jake Tillman is still delivering a Peter Cullen impersonation and calling it a performance, but I felt like he did a decent enough job here aside from when he needed to raise his voice :shrug:.

- Bumblebee being this loner Energon scout who wants nothing to do with both factions was an interesting take. I didn't love how they used the Alpha Trion protocols to contrive his involvement with the Autobots, but I liked that he finally decided to join them even after the protocols were gone :anime:.

- I wasn't expecting them to turn Jetfire into Dinobot from Beast Wars, but I liked how they explored Jeftire as a Decepticon more before he inevitably switched sides to the Autobots :knd1:.

- I liked a more action-heavy Elita-1 but her constant doubting of Prime just got old after a while :rolleyes:.

- Ultra Magnus was pretty useless. The most he actually accomplished was dying so that Bumblebee could lead the Autobots to the Allspark, but I guess that was useful to a certain extent :sad:.

- Did they actually kill off Skywarp? He still seemed alive when Starscream found him. Not sure why Starscream would try to claim he's dead, though he's also got an EarthRise toy...

- I thought it was weird to see Red Alert as the medic instead of Ratchet until we found out what was actually going on with Ratchet, and then they followed canon by knocking Red Alert off the Ark and leaving Ratchet as the main Autobot medic. Funny how things work :).

- I love how all the fembots have prominent thighs and sway their hips whenever they move. Especially Arcee :p.

- I really don't buy that Prime would've gone along with putting that bomb in Jetifre's head. This is the same 'bot who said that they wouldn't be like the Decepticons and force anyone to join the Autobots, but he's fine with putting a bomb in Jetfire? If anything, Jetfire's willingness to go along with it should've been proof to Optimus that he was serious about switching sides :confused:.

- Poor Moonracer. Good thing Powerglide wasn't in this :crying:.

- Pretty fun take on Soundblaster. It was funny to see them make a comment about him instead of all the other recolors in this show :rolleyes2:.

- Random Terrorcons are random :oops:.

- A huge Astrotrain showed up for five seconds and seemingly out-of-nowhere. Not sure what that was about :eek:.

- Omega Supreme! What an entrance. I knew he was going to show up when we saw that Guardian sillhouette peering down on Optimus, but it was still pretty awesome. I'm going to assume the Spacebridge explosion caused him to follow the Ark into space :cool:.

- Nice re-contexualizing the lore of G1 for this iteration. We've got the Ark crew with mainly classic G1 characters (and later G1 character Arcee) lost in space and destined to end up on Earth while Elita-1 and a small resistance continue the fight on Cybertron. Starscream is made head of the Seekers which will inevitably blow up in Megatron's face because it's, of course, Starscream. And thus sets the stage for Earthrise and the fight for the Allspark on Earth :D.
 

TheVileOne

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When I saw Astrotrain for that five-second cameo I thought I was mistaken and figured no way they'd just stick Astrotrain in there and not have him do anything. I guess I was wrong.

It's just that Astrotrain had one of the more unique character models for not just the toys but the entire show. I figured if you'd want to build that model in CG and animate it, you'd probably want to get a bit more use of out if it. But I guess I was wrong.

Either way, I'm glad other people noticed Astrotrain because I thought I was going crazy and thought it was just another Seeker or some such.
 

Frontier

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When I saw Astrotrain for that five-second cameo I thought I was mistaken and figured no way they'd just stick Astrotrain in there and not have him do anything. I guess I was wrong.

It's just that Astrotrain had one of the more unique character models for not just the toys but the entire show. I figured if you'd want to build that model in CG and animate it, you'd probably want to get a bit more use of out if it. But I guess I was wrong.

Either way, I'm glad other people noticed Astrotrain because I thought I was going crazy and thought it was just another Seeker or some such.
Maybe they'll use Astrotrain to travel to Earth instead of the Nemesis ;)?
 

JoeMabbon

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That was interesting.

Frank Todaro went from sounding kinda like Chris Latta in Combiner Wars to sounding exactly like him here.

We see only a brief appearance of what looked like Astrotrain I think once, but he doesn't get any action beats.

It's weird, but I kinda like that he only had a cameo here. I think Ravage is like the same way, he appears just to confirm he exists. It gives the impression that there really is a Decepticon Army beyond the main cast.
 

Frontier

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Frank Todaro went from sounding kinda like Chris Latta in Combiner Wars to sounding exactly like him here.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking to myself "is this the same guy from Combiner Wars? He sounds way better here." I haven't heard so uncanny a Chris Latta impression in a while :p.
It's weird, but I kinda like that he only had a cameo here. I think Ravage is like the same way, he appears just to confirm he exists. It gives the impression that there really is a Decepticon Army beyond the main cast.
I just wanted to see Ravage and Soundwave together...
 

Frontier

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One thing I did like was the build up to Prime saying "Roll Out." Like, all season he keeps saying "Autobots..." like he's about to say "Roll Out" only for him to say something else instead, until he finally says it in Chapter 6 :).

Cyberverse
did something similar where he didn't say it until the last scene of the season 1 finale :p.
 

TheVileOne

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I enjoy that we're moving back to large Transformers casts as opposed to small squads who have to "learn how to work as a team."

There are pros and cons to both. Beast Wars always had to keep both sides very limited. The benefit was that you could do more with the core cast you focused on and give everyone fulfilling character arcs.

That said, I did like that there were secondary and tertiary characters here, who while they didn't have big roles, they were present for a lot of the action and got to do stuff here and there. IE, Prowl doesn't have a huge character arc, but he does get that one really nice good sort of mini-arc with Jetfire that had a good payoff.

I still think Astrotrain should've done something other than stand around.
 

Frontier

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Thoughts on Earthrise:

So, yeah, that speculation that the Transformers wouldn't arrive on Earth until the very last episode (down to the very last minute) were spot-on. These whole two seasons basically comprise the first 10 minutes of the More Than Meets the Eye pilot. They don't even arrive on normal Earth, instead somehow stumbling onto prehistoric Earth (hello Beast Wars). How the fudge are they going to scan Earth alt modes :confused:?

I think there was more transforming this season compared to the last one? At least before the last few episodes, although we still have instances of Transformers running when it would be more practical to transform (like Bumblebee running from Scorponock) or the inverse where Chromia is the only one who remembers to transform :eyeroll:.

Man, it doesn't pay to look like Reflector in this continuity...and poor Impactor's body is now used for Decepticon grunts :(.

So, yeah...what did happen to Omega Supreme? I mean, he's got a ship mode so I guess he could just have been teleported somewhere else and just fly in at the climax of next season. It's not like the Allspark and the Ark ended up in the same place ;).

I mean, Cybertron looks as dead as it did before they jettisoned the Allspark so I'm not sure how this is all Prime's fault. What, was Prime just expected to safeguard the Allspark indefinitely while the Decepticons were planning to use it to brainwash everyone? Somehow use the Allspark to revitalize the planet? I dunno, the Prime guilt-tripping just didn't work for me :shrug:.

Megatron talking to the severed head of Ultra Magnus...well, that was kind of morbid :ack:.

Did anyone else get the sense that there was some kind of Megatron/Ariel/Orion love triangle going on before the war o_O?

Now Elita knows what it's like to have your idealism and actions questioned constantly, but Jetfire at least got better :).

"I'm always alert!" I can't tell if that's too goofy for words or should be Red Alert's new catchphrase :p.

Poor, poor Steeljaw...thank goodness Blaster may not see this :sad:.

I love how Chromia takes the liberty to punch that Decepticon who needs to get hit to maintain his cover and then ends up sniping that same 'Con in the very last episode. Guess this is what happens when you jump ship only halfway :sweat:.

Where was Ratchet when the Autobots were being taken in by the mercenaries? He kind of seemed to vanish :confused:.

I'm kind of not sure what to think about Doubledealer. He seems to want nothing to do with the factions and just wants his people taken care of, and sold the Autobots out to the 'Cons, but he seemed genuine enough about wishing the Autobots success in finding the Allspark. Then again, I guess it's fitting for someone who attempts to play everyone to end up losing control of themselves :eek:.

The Quintessons actually looked pretty good and creepy in CGI, especially with how they handled the multiple faces and the division between them. Does ripping/killing your own faces count as self-harm or murder? and And did she survive the finale :ack:?

Scorponok kind of felt like he came out of nowhere. Are we supposed to assume he was part of a whole race of Scorponok's that the Quintesson's developed and then abandoned to waste away? Just felt like there was a lot left unaddressed regarding him, and we only saw his robot mode once. I did like how they met him at the "Nebulon" station, like Nebulos ;).

Soundwave ejected Ravage! Yay :proud:.

Can we just stop with this version of Megatron being noble and self-righteous? He took every opportunity Prime gave him to work together or to find peace and then proceeded to sucker-punch and try and kill Optimus. His main motivation in the last half of the season was basically to kill Prime because that's all he cared about. He's not suddenly a good guy because he has the Matrix either. A spade is a spade and a villain is a villain :mad:.

Jetfire and Bumblebee getting their Autobot symbols was so satisfying :D.

Starscream taking the first opportunity to write Megatron off and take over leadership of the Decepticons? Right down to practically trying to kill Megatron? Wow, that is...such an interesting new direction for the character! I never could have seen it coming! What amazing new directions they're taking such an iconic character :harley:.

I want to hear Alpha Trion say "blow it all to scrap" ;).

Sky-Lynx being this proud warrior Autobot who Alpha Trion banished to the Dead Universe for trying to forcefully take the Matrix was...a thing. And then he became Optimus' spirit mentor, which was another thing. And then he pulled a Mecha-style "taking the brunt of the blast to save everyone" sacrifice, which was his last thing :crying:.

Man, there was like no enthusiasm in that "Till All Are One." You could almost tell that Megatron was secretly plotting to kill them all...

Oh, so now we're straight up just predicting Optimus Prime's death :p?

I feel like Jacob Tillman's Optimus voice really doesn't hold up as well when Optimus is angry or yelling. That line where he says "say you forgive me," while being completely out of place, was just one instance of it in my opinion :(.

Galvatron popping in randomly like it was his transformation sequence from the movie was hilarious. He even posed! I did like how Jason Marnocha seemed to be channeling Frank Welker and even Leonard Nimoy in terms of making Galvatron sound different from Megatron so they're the same, yet distinct. Unicron sounded good too. I have to wonder how this is all going to come together in Kingdom though o_O.

Wow, that was a quicker Autobot vs Decepticon fight on the bridge of the Ark compared to what I remembered :sad:.

I forgot for a second that Shockwave wasn't on the Nemesis because he's supposed to stay behind on Cybertrton (thanks G1). Shockwave with camo powers (heck, 'Cons with camo powers) is...actually kind of scary :eek:.

Well, that was kind of a waste of Vortex...

Oh hey, Astrotrain is normal sized now o_O.

That was a pretty explosive end for everybody on Cybertron. I mean, it looked like everybody died, but I kind of doubt that actually happened. I assume we'll see the Autobots taking care of Shockwave as their storyline next season :).

Wow, poor Cog. He gets jettisoned out of the Ark and his big moment is immediately deflated by getting stabbed by the Quintesson and then blasted on by his own people until he blows up and takes everyone with him :crying:.

I thought that might've been a normal dinosaur at the end there, but nope...it's actually Dinobot :cool:.
 
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Fone Bone

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Transformers: Earthrise: War For Cybertron Trilogy "Chapter 1"

That was dark. Not too enjoyable, to be honest. But the cliffhanger was all right. ***.

Transformers: Earthrise: War For Cybertron Trilogy "Chapter 2"

That Quintessan is super crazy.

Speaking of which, I laughed at Megatron telling Ultra-Magnus' head not to look at him like that.

Better than the premiere. ***1/2.

Transformers: Earthrise: War For Cybertron Trilogy "Chapter 3"

That was actually pretty solid.

I liked Elita shaking hands with the Decepticon and pledging to free the Arena. That was cool.

I liked it. ****.

Transformers: Earthrise: War For Cybertron Trilogy "Chapter 4"

A bit of an underwhelming ending.

When did Elita die? Did I miss that?

I loved Optimus' one-on-one scene with Megatron. Optimus suggesting that Megatron needed him alive as a villain to fight and rally around was not only insightful, but the idea seemed to be unique to this version of the characters. I liked seeing a dynamic between Optimus and Megatron I hadn't seen before.

Megatron really does NOT like being called a Quintesson.

Good but the end petered out. ***1/2.

Transformers: Earthrise: War For Cybertron Trilogy "Chapter 5"

Considering the season subtitle, you'd figure we'd have gotten to Earth before now.

Galvatron! I liked his intro mirroring the awful 86 cartoon movie. We got a quick peek at Unicron too.

Everything Sky Lynx says is either confusing or annoying.

No lie. The animation was pretty trippy this episode.

This was all right. ***.

Transformers: Earthrise: War For Cybertron Trilogy "Chapter 6"

That was underwhelming. The part where the base exploded was pretty cool, but I think this season was a big bucket of nothin'.

Desius remains super crazy.

So Elita's alive after all.

Dinobot at the end? I can't even tell anymore.

Bumblebees are Earth insects. So why is Bumblebee the Autobot named after one if they've never been to Earth before? I hate realizing stuff that bugs me.

This Optimus sucks at screaming. Granted, Optimus is never supposed to be a screamer to begin with, but his actor here is thoroughly unconvincing at it.

I really liked the first season, but this one bored me. ***.
 

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I dug it. Looking back, it felt like 13 episodes worth of events happened in just 6.

Weird choice to have so many villains show up with muddled, unclear motivations. It makes sense for the characters involved (The Quintesson was deranged, Scorponok was a feral beast, Galvatron spoke in vague time traveler nonsense, etc.). Maybe leave one of them out if you only have half a dozen episodes to tell your story.

It also felt like more humor was injected into this one. Not all the jokes land, but enough do that it works for me.
I mean, Cybertron looks as dead as it did before they jettisoned the Allspark so I'm not sure how this is all Prime's fault. What, was Prime just expected to safeguard the Allspark indefinitely while the Decepticons were planning to use it to brainwash everyone? Somehow use the Allspark to revitalize the planet? I dunno, the Prime guilt-tripping just didn't work for me :shrug:.

I prefer how Cyberverse did it, with Optimus not knowing his actions would doom the planet. As it stands, what do the Autobots plan to do when they have the Allspark? "We threw it in the Spacebridge, but now we have to go get it and take it back to where the Decepticons still are?" Cyberverse at least leaves room for Optimus to regret the decision due to unintended consequences.

The Quintessons actually looked pretty good and creepy in CGI, especially with how they handled the multiple faces and the division between them.

Eh, Cyberverse Quintessons were cooler.

Bumblebees are Earth insects. So why is Bumblebee the Autobot named after one if they've never been to Earth before? I hate realizing stuff that bugs me.
If it helps, his real name is supposed to be B-127 or whatever.
 
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