The Struggle for Retribution - Gundam SEED Destiny: Special Edition (Spoilers)

[Pepperidge]

OK, about time we put the old thread to rest. This, apparently, is a rough version of the cover for Gundam SEED Destiny Movie I:

Not sure if this exact image will be used, since it looks so much different from the past movies, but I haven't seen that artwork before anywhere.

Interesting that, despite the fact that Athrun's POV will be used, he's nowhere to be found on the first cover. I guess we'll still be seeing something closer to the balance between Athrun and Shinn that was intended. Also glad to see that the Extendeds aren't being shafted entirely. Maybe they'll actually get *gasp* a short scene together in the second half of the first movie?

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

That image kicks ass! Surprised at no Athrun, period. Having Shinn and the Extended is interesting, hopefully this shows Shinn will be getting to take center stage(nothing would make me happier in this world).

 

[Duke]

OK, about time we put the old thread to rest.

NEVA!!!! We only had 30 pages until it was the longest thread on TZ!!! And only 10.5 until it was #2!

Oh, and the cover's pretty cool-looking too, I guess.

 

[HellCat]

The cover to me hopefully implies actual focus on the next generation cast, not just focusing on them early on and then leaving them to choke on a spoonfed diet of Gilbert propoganda.

As for it's officialness...Impulse does kinda look like it's been pinched from a model kit box.

 

[Pepperidge]

Well, this was taken from Amazon.jp. I really hope the movie encompasses episodes 1-16. 16 would be the perfect note for the film to end on.

Oh, and apparently part one is going to be broadcasting on March 23rd...

 

[GWOtaku]

I'm looking forward to going over the RAW and seeing what they reanimated and how they'll tell the story.

There are basically three awesome points that Special Edition I could end on well: Freedom's return & Cagalli's abduction, Shinn demolishing the EA fleet, or Athrun's big talk with Shinn from phase 17. I'd be happy with any of those.

 

[Pepperidge]

Freedom's return and Shinn's demolishing would probably work better as flashbacks. The "big talk" would be the place to end it.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

The big talk only works if Life Goes On starts playing, though. Gah.

Oh well, I guess some Nami Tamaki song wouldn't be that bad...

I think the whole Lacus Assassination and the kidnapping will be cut out and included as a flashback(a brief one though, not very long, and leaving out most of the useless stuff).

It wouldn't flow well at all.

 

[Duke]

Ideally, it'd be really nice to leave off Movie 1 with Freedom kidnapping Cagalli, Shinn demolishing the Orb fleet, and Athrun leaving in Savior. Of course, that's kinda impossible unless they decide to have the wedding at the same time as the attack on the Minerva, which is pretty stupid.

I can't really see them happening as flashbacks though. It just wouldn't feel right to have everything spent on the Minerva, and then have Freedom and the Archangel appear out of nowhere during the first battle vs. Orb/EA. Just because Athrun's the focus doesn't mean they can't cut away to other places for a time. That would be even more a repeat of Zeta, which killed the storyline in that series.

 

[Lord Dalek]

NEVA!!!! We only had 30 pages until it was the longest thread on TZ!!! And only 10.5 until it was #2!

Well you are a mod here aren't you? Just merge it.

 

[Pepperidge]

Both of the Orb/EA battles will probably be edited together in movie II, though. I can't see them staying separate, despite some of the inevitable complications involving Heine. Athrun will probably meet up with Kira before that and get everything layed out.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Ideally, it'd be really nice to leave off Movie 1 with Freedom kidnapping Cagalli, Shinn demolishing the Orb fleet, and Athrun leaving in Savior. Of course, that's kinda impossible unless they decide to have the wedding at the same time as the attack on the Minerva, which is pretty stupid.

I can't really see them happening as flashbacks though. It just wouldn't feel right to have everything spent on the Minerva, and then have Freedom and the Archangel appear out of nowhere during the first battle vs. Orb/EA. Just because Athrun's the focus doesn't mean they can't cut away to other places for a time. That would be even more a repeat of Zeta, which killed the storyline in that series.

Part of the reason for Zeta's excellence was how focused it was.

Did we really need to see time spent during the Earth arc showing what Emma and Fa were doing in space? Yeah, it was weird that they completely disappeared for 10 episodes, but it was Kamille's story. During that time, Katz, Amuro, and Hayato got their moment(and Beltorchika, unfortunately).

Cutting away for a long time to the Archangel would be a bad idea. The Archangel needs its screentime cut down in Special Edition.

 

[Duke]

Part of the reason for Zeta's excellence was how focused it was.

That was one of my main sticking points for the series.

Did we really need to see time spent during the Earth arc showing what Emma and Fa were doing in space? Yeah, it was weird that they completely disappeared for 10 episodes, but it was Kamille's story. During that time, Katz, Amuro, and Hayato got their moment(and Beltorchika, unfortunately).

Yet during the original Gundam, we saw a bunch of non-White Base stuff, including what happened up in space, yet I don't see anybody saying it was anything other than Amuro's story. There's a point to where the series becomes TOO focused.

If the Destiny SE's takes the Zeta route like that, it will automatically fail with me, unless Fukuda can somehow make it the greatest literary masterpiece of all time. I hated it in Zeta, and I'll hate that route in Destiny. Granted, Athrun's more likable than Kamille was, and Athrun didn't have Char stealing any and all coolness away from him (Gilbert's suave, not cool), but my point still stands. I won't say they'll be worse than the SEED SE's since I haven't seen them yet, but I won't give them a much higher grade if, in fact, they go the Zeta-storytelling direction.

Cutting away for a long time to the Archangel would be a bad idea. The Archangel needs its screentime cut down in Special Edition.

How much screen time the Archangel gets depends on how long these SEs are. If they're simply 95 minutes like the previous specials, then the Archangel will get about 15 minutes, if that, in the first one, with each appearence getting more screen time as they actually become part of the plot. If they're smart, they'll make the SE's 2.5 hours long each, so the Archangel would get about a half-hour or so in the first movie.

 

[HellCat]

Remove the bath house that has no place on a battleship.

I agree that Zeta's focus was fine. Kamille's got the best from Char and Amuro, so he needed some time away from Quattro to be mentored by Amuro. If anything, Destiny shows what happens when you try to focus on too many characters.

 

[HellCat]

Yet during the original Gundam, we saw a bunch of non-White Base stuff, including what happened up in space, yet I don't see anybody saying it was anything other than Amuro's story. There's a point to where the series becomes TOO focused.

We saw what was necessary. Something major going on with the Zabis? Let's jump to Side 3. Revil is soon to meet the White Base crew and is planning a major offensive? Off to his Big Tray.

In Destiny, it's "Let's show the characters looking focused as they watched so and so make a big speech".

 

[Duke]

If anything, Destiny shows what happens when you try to focus on too many characters.

I disagree that Destiny focused on too many characters. I do agree that Destiny did a bad job at focusing on them (particularly anybody not named Shinn, Athrun, or Kira), but I disagree that the intention was wrong. What needed to be done was to strip away the excess filler and add some more meat to the supporting characters.

08th MS Team probably did it best, as it gave focus and development to all the principal characters. Granted, 08th MS Team was only a quarter of the length of Destiny, but the arguement still stands.

We saw what was necessary. Something major going on with the Zabis? Let's jump to Side 3. Revil is soon to meet the White Base crew and is planning a major offensive? Off to his Big Tray.

We didn't even get that in Zeta either. Char goes back into space and does some major work for the rebels, yet we never see them, nor do we see him picking up the kids, or Fa asking to be trained, or any of that stuff. It's all given as background exposition, and it leads to laziness on the part of the writers.

 

[Pepperidge]

Duke, you can always think of Shinn as the talking pie: if it weren't for him, it would just be Athrun on screen for 90 minutes.

But if they need to cut away to ANYWHERE during the first movie it should be the Girty Lue.

Remove the bath house that has no place on a battleship.

Agreed, but I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that if Miri had joined the crew at that point. xD

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

That was one of my main sticking points for the series.


Yet during the original Gundam, we saw a bunch of non-White Base stuff, including what happened up in space, yet I don't see anybody saying it was anything other than Amuro's story. There's a point to where the series becomes TOO focused.

And Zeta did, too. We got plenty of focus on the Alexandria, the Jupiterus, and the Dogos Gier. Yeah, we see nothing of Karaba aside from Kamille's stay on Earth, but what would be the point of seeing them? They weren't connected to the main story aside from their relationships with Kamille and Char.

If the Destiny SE's takes the Zeta route like that, it will automatically fail with me, unless Fukuda can somehow make it the greatest literary masterpiece of all time. I hated it in Zeta, and I'll hate that route in Destiny. Granted, Athrun's more likable than Kamille was, and Athrun didn't have Char stealing any and all coolness away from him (Gilbert's suave, not cool), but my point still stands. I won't say they'll be worse than the SEED SE's since I haven't seen them yet, but I won't give them a much higher grade if, in fact, they go the Zeta-storytelling direction.

It'll succeed in my mind. Zeta was a masterpiece, and Kamille one of Gundam's greatest characters ever(I'd take Shinn and Char over him, but just barely).

Destiny's biggest weakness was its lack of focus. Particularly later in the run. For Destiny SE to succeed, it needs to gain focus. Kira and the Archangel should be characters with occasional appearances, and shouldn't steal the show. Give most of the focus to Shinn and Athrun, and take time to better develop the Minerva crew, along with the Extended.

I won't say that Zeta was perfect in focus(Henken really got the short end of the stick, more then any other Captain, including Talia. At least she was never literally replaced by her predecessor. ), but it beats Destiny, and what Destiny lacked was focus.

It has the drama down, it has the characters(although some of them need more development), it just lacked in focus(which may have been a result of too many different people working on it, each with their own idea of who should get the attention).

How much screen time the Archangel gets depends on how long these SEs are. If they're simply 95 minutes like the previous specials, then the Archangel will get about 15 minutes, if that, in the first one, with each appearence getting more screen time as they actually become part of the plot. If they're smart, they'll make the SE's 2.5 hours long each, so the Archangel would get about a half-hour or so in the first movie.

They need to be as long as possible(2.5 hours would be nice, but very doubtful), but for focus on Shinn and the Minerva.

If its 2 and a half hours, I could say give 20 minutes to the Archangel, tops.

If its 95 minutes, none of them(aside from Kira and Lacus watching Break the World, and Kira talking with Athrun), and a 5 minute flashback in SE 2 of what happened.

 

[HellCat]

I disagree that Destiny focused on too many characters. I do agree that Destiny did a bad job at focusing on them (particularly anybody not named Shinn, Athrun, or Kira), but I disagree that the intention was wrong. What needed to be done was to strip away the excess filler and add some more meat to the supporting characters.

08th MS Team probably did it best, as it gave focus and development to all the principal characters. Granted, 08th MS Team was only a quarter of the length of Destiny, but the arguement still stands.

The Minerva crew should have been the focus. They were for a handful of episodes, then the staff decided to throw in the whole Clyne Faction yet again. Zeta got it right- past characters had small but meaningful cameos and Char and Amuro briefly interacted but it was Kamille's story. In Destiny, as soon as the Archangel crew flee from Orb the new characters are doomed. The Archangel characters, blessed with near invincibility, constantly stick their noses in and come out on top. The Minerva crew become sidetracked as brainless ZAFT supporters and wholeheartedly accept Gilbert's "I guess the legendary Archangel/Athrun have lost their way". The very characters the show initially wanted us to like are now the villains and stupid ones at that. I won't even get into how weak the show handled female characters.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Remove the bath house that has no place on a battleship.

I agree that Zeta's focus was fine. Kamille's got the best from Char and Amuro, so he needed some time away from Quattro to be mentored by Amuro. If anything, Destiny shows what happens when you try to focus on too many characters.

Indeed.

Point #1 for Destiny SE is focus(and from the sound of it, Fukuda realizes it.)

Make it Shinn and Athrun's story. Increase focus on Rey, Lunamaria, the Extended, Talia, Heine(when he was alive), and Neo.

Decrease the Archangel's role. Have them play more of a background role, and not steal the attention.

I disagree that Destiny focused on too many characters. I do agree that Destiny did a bad job at focusing on them (particularly anybody not named Shinn, Athrun, or Kira), but I disagree that the intention was wrong. What needed to be done was to strip away the excess filler and add some more meat to the supporting characters.

If Fukuda can get three focus characters, good for him.

#3 should be someone from Rey, Neo, and Gilbert.

08th MS Team probably did it best, as it gave focus and development to all the principal characters. Granted, 08th MS Team was only a quarter of the length of Destiny, but the arguement still stands.

OVAs are also a lot less constricting. They don't have to worry as much about the toyetic parts of the series, keeping in with certain boundaries, etc.

0080 gave all the focus needed to its principle 3, and developed everyone else great, too. But they didn't have to worry about all the stuff that Zeta or Destiny does.

We didn't even get that in Zeta either. Char goes back into space and does some major work for the rebels, yet we never see them, nor do we see him picking up the kids, or Fa asking to be trained, or any of that stuff. It's all given as background exposition, and it leads to laziness on the part of the writers.

We do see him picking up Shinta and Qum.
What would be the point of seeing a 5 second scene of Fa asking for training. Doesn't Kamille asking where she is and being told she's getting training work just as well?

It was jarring the way Zeta was set up, at first, but I feel it worked well.