"Tangled: The Series" Talkback (Spoilers)

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RainbowCupcake

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"Race to the Spire:" Interesting episode. Was not expecting Calliope to return. She was kind of annoying during her last appearance, but then again I think that gives her a bit of charm. It was fun seeing her used again here (and I forgot how cute her baby bear was!). Although I saw the twist coming almost immediately, I feel like the writers did a good job not making it blatantly obvious. Fake Calliope had some suspicious dialogue but still retained some of her normal personality quirks (hiding from the ice monsters, thinking that she was the one who saved the day, etc.) Zhan Tiri is a good actor. Speaking of this complex character, I was somewhat surprised as well that she/he/it/whatever up and revealed their identity to Rapunzel. Now that Rapunzel knows that Zhan Tiri is the one manipulating Cassandra, isn't she going to have a better chance of converting Cassandra back to normal? Maybe there's some sort of special artifact or incantation that can specifically stop Zhan Tiri? I know the story's got to move along, but this scene felt almost unnecessary in a way.

Also, we're less than one month away until the series finale!

Side note: I wonder if this and all of the other Disney Princess shows are set in the same universe. Calliope did say the lamp would keep her trapped for "10,000 years," the same amount of time that Genie was trapped in the lamp in Aladdin. Maybe this was just supposed to be a fun Easter Egg, but now I'm seriously wondering if all of these movies/shows are connected canonically.
 
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Fone Bone

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The one problem I have, is why did Zhan Tiri have to come back and reveal everything to Rapunzel. Again just arrogance. I expect that for Calliope, but Zhan Tiri should not be that stupid. She gains nothing by this, just wants to crow.
My review touches on this. It's actually tactically genius. She only did it upon learning Rapunzel's weakness which says everything.

Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure "Race To The Spire"

I was all set to comment on how cool it was Rapunzel saved the snow monsters, and how detestable Cass has gotten, but a bigger question hit me at the end of that:

Why did Zahn Tiri reveal herself to Rapunzel?

In all respects it's a tactical mistake. One of the biggest things Team Cass had going for it is that Rapunzel didn't actually know what she wanted. She still doesn't, but knowing Zanh Tiri is involved gives Rapunzel a rough idea. Especially dumb is Zanh Tiri telling her Cass is under her influence. If Rapunzel knows that, she can attempt to break the influence. It seems like bad villaining at first glance.

But if you think about it, it's kind of brilliant. Why? Whether or not Cass is fully responsible for her actions (and I don't tend to give her the benefit of the doubt there) telling Rapunzel she isn't is a good move on some level now that we know there is a war coming, and Cass and Rapunzel are on opposite sides. Why? It speaks to the weakness Zanh Tiri learned about Rapunzel: She's compassionate. To a fault. While Cass will be fighting her to the death, she'll be fighting Cass to containment. Which is how wars are lost. Wars are not for the timid. And if Rapunzel believes Cass can be reached, she is fighting at an immediate disadvantage, and Zanh Tiru is right that it's a weakness. Not in most circumstances. In war? Definitely.

I think Rapunzel is in for a world of hurt. I don't think reaching Cass is out of the question (this IS a Disney show) but she's going to put far more effort into that than she should, and going to lose far more than she needs to because of that. Varian's father is a case in point. Without her compassion for Calliope, he'd be fine. I think Varian has grown as a person, but if he wants to blame Rapunzel for what happens next without turning criminally insane, he will be right to.

I honestly don't like where this is headed. This used be an enjoyable show. It's still interesting and psychologically complex, which is good, but it's no longer enjoyable. I probably wouldn't be mad except the show used to be all three at once. I don't get why or appreciate that the show is no fun anymore. ***.
 
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Light Lucario

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I honestly don't like where this is headed. This used be an enjoyable show. It's still interesting and psychologically complex, which is good, but it's no longer enjoyable. I probably wouldn't be mad except the show used to be all three at once. I don't get why or appreciate that the show is no fun anymore. ***.
I still find the show to be really enjoyable. Even with the darker or more intense moments in this episodes, there were plenty of nice moments to balance it out, so it isn't just all doom and gloom. Although, I thought of a question that I probably should have asked earlier. I understand that you don't like the surprise betrayal twist, but what direction would you have preferred the show to go with instead? It still might be too early to ask about this, but I'm just curious. It seems like Cassandra betraying Rapunzel plays too much of a key role in both her character arc and the plot of the third season in general. I think that they would have to rework at least part of season two and all of season three if they didn't want to have Cassandra betray the group and I don't know if that would have been possible.

I also don't think any other character could have reasonably betrayed Rapunzel and have that much emotional impact on her or the audience. The only character that could have done that would be Eugene, but it would be immensely out of character for him to do what Cassandra has done. Not to mention we already know that they do get married, so the drama would feel kind of moot or forced. Cassandra's future isn't as clear, even though she'll most likely get some kind of redemption, but we still don't know if or how she'll be saved at the end.

Anyway, I thought that this episode was pretty good. I completely forgot about Calliope and how insufferable she is. Of course Rapunzel would still want to save her, but she was so annoying both here and in her debut episode. I loved how Rapunzel was ready to fight back the moment the mysterious light showed up. Eugene saying that it was just his luck to fall in love with the most compassionate person in the world was adorable. I just love the moments between them so much. It was also pretty sweet how he quickly held onto Rapunzel when they were crashing in their hot air balloon. I'm sure it was a combination of Eugene wanting to protect Rapunzel and being afraid himself, but it was just cute how his first reaction was to go to Rapunzel.

The fight scene was also pretty fun. The twirl attack bit was adorable and I loved how in sync the two of them were with each other. Rapunzel wanting to save the ice monsters was pretty fitting for her and their confusion afterwards was pretty funny. I guess I should have expected the fake Calliope coming after the opening already established that Cassandra had the cloak. I was also surprised that they could see the ghost girl since I wasn't quite sure if only Cassandra could still see her even after the previous episode. It was strange that the crack in the moon stone didn't seem to affect Cassandra's powers, but I'm sure that they're going somewhere with that later on.

Considering how dangerous most of these magical artifacts are, one would think that they'd be locked away, especially that magic lamp. As annoying as Calliope is, of course they wouldn't sacrifice her to keep the stone away from Cassandra. I really liked how Eugene just silently comforted Rapunzel afterwards. He clearly admires her compassionate nature and it is one of her strengths, but the villains just manipulated that strength for their advantage and mocked her for it. It was just a nice moment to further showcase more of their relationship.

I honestly didn't think that Zhan Tiri was stupid for revealing herself to Rapunzel. It was more of an overconfident villain kind of move, but they had a good reason to be overconfident. They already got what they wanted from Rapunzel by manipulating her compassionate nature, so she wouldn't see any danger in revealing more of her plans. It was basically a mind game for Zhan Tiri. Despite saying that they have full control over Cassandra, I highly doubt that she's under any mind control. There have been too many moments where Cassandra has shown more emotional vulnerability and shock, particularly in the season premiere and mid-season finale, over what she has done. She's clearly being emotionally manipulated, but I don't think that she has been put under a spell or anything like that. While Zhan Tiri is the root cause of the problem, I don't think that gives Cassandra a free pass from what she has done. I'm sure that the show will still put her in a more sympathetic light once she realizes who she is teaming up with, but I just hope that they won't put the complete blame on Zhan Tiri either.

Cassandra effectively gaining her own army with the Brotherhood was surprising. I thought that they would all go to her at the end, but it seems like they can now go to Cassandra once she calls for them. That's going to make it really hard on Varian considering that his father is part of the Brotherhood. I wonder if Eugene's father will be affected as well, despite how he wasn't shown to be affected by the stone at the end. Overall, it was a pretty good episode.
 

Fone Bone

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I still find the show to be really enjoyable. Even with the darker or more intense moments in this episodes, there were plenty of nice moments to balance it out, so it isn't just all doom and gloom. Although, I thought of a question that I probably should have asked earlier. I understand that you don't like the surprise betrayal twist, but what direction would you have preferred the show to go with instead? It still might be too early to ask about this, but I'm just curious. It seems like Cassandra betraying Rapunzel plays too much of a key role in both her character arc and the plot of the third season in general. I think that they would have to rework at least part of season two and all of season three if they didn't want to have Cassandra betray the group and I don't know if that would have been possible.

I also don't think any other character could have reasonably betrayed Rapunzel and have that much emotional impact on her or the audience. The only character that could have done that would be Eugene, but it would be immensely out of character for him to do what Cassandra has done. Not to mention we already know that they do get married, so the drama would feel kind of moot or forced. Cassandra's future isn't as clear, even though she'll most likely get some kind of redemption, but we still don't know if or how she'll be saved at the end.
To be honest, I don't feel any character needed to betray Rapunzel. I don't think that trope really ever needs to be used, especially not on an ongoing series for little kids. Were I in charge I would have structured the entire Sundrop arc around something else entirely. I wouldn't give it to another character. I'd simply not do it.
 

Light Lucario

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To be honest, I don't feel any character needed to betray Rapunzel. I don't think that trope really ever needs to be used, especially not on an ongoing series for little kids. Were I in charge I would have structured the entire Sundrop arc around something else entirely. I wouldn't give it to another character. I'd simply not do it.
I'm almost positive that I've seen this trope used in other shows for kids. I can't think of any solid examples off the top of my head right now, but I don't think that kind of trope has been off-limits for kid shows. In any case, I can understand wanting to do something completely different. It just seems like that would require reworking a large portion of the show from the ground up, so it's hard for me to see if that would have been necessarily better or even just plausible with the setup they had in motion for Cassandra and Zhan Tiri being the final big bad of the series.
 

Fone Bone

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I'm almost positive that I've seen this trope used in other shows for kids. I can't think of any solid examples off the top of my head right now, but I don't think that kind of trope has been off-limits for kid shows. In any case, I can understand wanting to do something completely different. It just seems like that would require reworking a large portion of the show from the ground up, so it's hard for me to see if that would have been necessarily better or even just plausible with the setup they had in motion for Cassandra and Zhan Tiri being the final big bad of the series.
I'm sure it's been used for other kids shows. But I don't like it much. And I could be wrong later on, but so far, the actual betrayal doesn't seem to be built into the fabric of the arc. That is a choice the show made. Granted, it was clearly a choice made early on, but it also doesn't strike me as a choice that was essential to the story being told. Or at least not the one we've seen so far.
 

Light Lucario

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I'm sure it's been used for other kids shows. But I don't like it much. And I could be wrong later on, but so far, the actual betrayal doesn't seem to be built into the fabric of the arc. That is a choice the show made. Granted, it was clearly a choice made early on, but it also doesn't strike me as a choice that was essential to the story being told. Or at least not the one we've seen so far.
I can understand not liking it, but I don't understand the notion that the betrayal wasn't essential for the story. Cassandra choosing to take the Moon Stone instead of allowing Rapunzel to fulfill her destiny as the Sundrop seems pretty important for the overall storyline, as well as having a significant impact on both Rapunzel and to a lesser degree Varian. I think that the problem for me is that I can't really picture a different direction for the story to have taken with what they've shown thus far. I wouldn't have predicted for Cassandra to become a villain when the series started, but I think that the setup was there in retrospect, particularly with her desire for glory, so I can't really see how they could have handled the storyline different without reworking a good portion of the series.
 

Radiant97

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I agree that the betrayal was essential to the story, but the bad things she does after she grabbed the moonstone opal still need to be justifiable so as to not completely ruin her character, and I initially found her declaration of war on Corona hard to justify since there seemed to be no real reason for it (at least at the time).

[smoothly segueing into my review of "A Tale of Two Sisters"]

Even this week's episode started with Cassandra desperately trying to get Rapunzel to the point where she foolishly endangered both of them. It felt really out of the ordinary to me. However, one line she said to Rapunzel in the beginning ("You don't belong here") does explain Cassandra's desire for war. She's trying to depose Rapunzel and steal her destiny from her. I don't know how justifiable that is, but at least it makes sense. Also, now Cassandra has a more concrete reason to be mad at Rapunzel thanks to Zhan Tiri tricking Cassandra into thinking Rapunzel tricked her into thinking Mother Gothel never loved her so she could get her back (that was one hell of a sentence), so that restored my faith in the show somewhat, even if the episode was off to a *ahem* rocky start. heh.

It does hurt to see just how close they were to making up though. I really enjoyed seeing their sisterly bond after they were at each other's throats for so long.
 
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slai

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While searching Amazon, I found out there have been 2 MP3 albums put out for the show already (for the 2 seasons) that consist of the show’s songs and some background music in case anyone is interested.



I was looking for “The Girl Who Has Everything” myself, but I guess I’ll have to wait for the next album to be released for that. I’ll have to settle for the YouTube music video in the meantime.
 

RainbowCupcake

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"A Tale of Two Sisters:" That was alright. It felt dryer than I imagined it would. I don't know, maybe it's something to do with the fact that it mostly took place in a dark, dreary cave.

I could tell something was up with that Gothel ghost. I thought it was an animatronic, but it turned out to be a wax figure. Did Cassandra build it herself? Impressive. Very lifelike.

The room of magic mirrors was an intriguing revelation for Gothel's character. It makes perfect sense why she would have them, being so vain and all. Gothel truly gives off Evil Queen vibes at times. I wondered if that one mirror missing a piece had any significance, and sure enough, it did. Gothel truly was a terrible parent. Mother does NOT know best.

Why all the poison gas in the cave? You'd think that it would have killed Gothel at some point when she traveled in and out of the caverns. The magic flower grants youthfulness, not invincibility.

There goes Zhan Tiri manipulating Cassandra again. I sense a breaking point in the imminent future.
 

ShadowBeast

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Does anyone think that Cass will find that mirror piece and see the truth about her mother?

I could tell something was up with that Gothel ghost. I thought it was an animatronic, but it turned out to be a wax figure. Did Cassandra build it herself? Impressive. Very lifelike.
I think Zhan Tiri built it as a way to lure Rapunzel to Gothel's old home.
There's a possibility that Gothel herself built it, but I don't think she would have replica of herself making that face, considering how vain she is.

Why all the poison gas in the cave? You'd think that it would have killed Gothel at some point when she traveled in and out of the caverns. The magic flower grants youthfulness, not invincibility.
I doubt Gothel even knew about it. The gas was only a problem because of Cassandra's rocks making fissures for the gas to escape out of.
 
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zoombie

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A Tale Of Two Sisters

This episode was a good episode, the time of the episode went by just like that, which is always a good sign.

However the episode wasn't the game changer the way the narrative trying to imply that it is. I know Zhan Tiri was setting this up to create a greater wedge between Rapunzel and Cassandra, but did she really? I think we are at the beginning of the episode. You really want to impress me Zhan Tiri, than break Rapunzel spirit and make her give up on Cassandra. That is what I thought we were headed, where Rapunzel going to accept "she choose her path, I choose my mine", she hasn't gotten to that point, though I expect that to happen in the episode before the finale.

So Gothel is really old, I wonder how could she have a daughter to begin with, wouldn't her clock have run out along ago. I just love putting scientific logic to these fantasy shows.

Would not surprise me, if next episode takes place the exact same time as the events of this episode.
 
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Radiant97

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However the episode wasn't the game changer the way the narrative trying to imply that it is. I know Zhan Tiri was setting this up to create a greater wedge between Rapunzel and Cassandra, but did she really? I think we are at the beginning of the episode. You really want to impress me Zhan Tiri, than break Rapunzel spirit and make her give up on Cassandra. That is what I thought we were headed, where Rapunzel going to accept "she choose her path, I choose my mine", she hasn't gotten to that point, though I expect that to happen in the episode before the finale.
I think she did, because the wedge between them wouldn't have been as great as it was had Cassandra let Rapunzel explain why she killed Gothel in "Cassandra's Revenge", and now, thanks to Zhan Tiri's setup, she's lost all reason to even consider reconciling with Rapunzel. I do expect Rapunzel to give up on Cassandra at some point, it's just a matter of when.
 

glennbyrnes

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"A Tale of Two Sisters:" That was alright. It felt dryer than I imagined it would. I don't know, maybe it's something to do with the fact that it mostly took place in a dark, dreary cave.

I could tell something was up with that Gothel ghost. I thought it was an animatronic, but it turned out to be a wax figure. Did Cassandra build it herself? Impressive. Very lifelike.

The room of magic mirrors was an intriguing revelation for Gothel's character. It makes perfect sense why she would have them, being so vain and all. Gothel truly gives off Evil Queen vibes at times. I wondered if that one mirror missing a piece had any significance, and sure enough, it did. Gothel truly was a terrible parent. Mother does NOT know best.

Why all the poison gas in the cave? You'd think that it would have killed Gothel at some point when she traveled in and out of the caverns. The magic flower grants youthfulness, not invincibility.

There goes Zhan Tiri manipulating Cassandra again. I sense a breaking point in the imminent future.
I thought that the music box was broken.
 

Fone Bone

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Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure "A Tale Of Two Sisters"

First let me compliment the episode for bothering to get back Donna Murphy for Mother Gothel. Most Disney projects wouldn't care enough to do that. They wouldn't even get a soundalike, they'd just settle for someone affordable and ask us to accept it. I will not dismiss the episode bringing Murphy back.

Unfortunately, the betrayal keeps living down to my worst expectations. And I hate being right. But every false step the series makes, I predicted correctly.

Here is how you know the betrayal plot is utterly forced: The missing mirror. It's TOO perfect of a wedge for Rapunzel and Cass. In fact, what bothers me is how omniscient and all-powerful Zanh Tiri seems for finding it, removing the damning piece, and foisting it on Rapunzel when she did. If she's SO powerful she knows exactly how to manipulate a fluid situation that perfectly, why does she even need Cassandra? Basically the series is asking me to be impressed with Gul Dukat being manipulated by freaking Q. I mean, yeah, it could happen, and that would be a genuine threat to Sisko and Picard, but why the frak would Q even bother? It seems this kind of petty stuff should be beneath Zahn Tiri. If she is this omnipotent, why does she even NEED to fracture the Gothel sisters? The answer is she doesn't, therefore the conflict is forced, therefore the arc of the season was never going to work.

I was not satisfied with that. And I'm upset that the producers think I should be. What's most annoying to me is that the missing shard proves Mother Gothel never loved Cass. Why does that need to be the moral for the season to work? Does Rapunzel trying to reform Cass need to come from an entirely perfect, altruistic place? Is there no room for nuance in Rapunzel's view of Mother Gothel? It's cartoon villain stuff, and I liked the show before it was cartoon villain stuff. The show is still psychologically complex to a degree, but it is now less so, and in a far less believable manner.

I don't even know why I'm complaining. It's just a dumb, Disney kids cartoon, right? It's just, that's not how I viewed it, at least until very recently. The show used to be so much more than that, until it fell into every single trap I knew it would fall into once it destroyed Rapunzel and Cassandra's important friendship. I hate being right about this, and wanted desperately to be wrong. But everything is playing out just as forced and unbelievably as I knew it would. I don't know everything about television. But I'm pretty good at pegging when a show jumps the shark. And the show jumped exactly when I said it did. **.
 

Radiant97

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If she's SO powerful she knows exactly how to manipulate a fluid situation that perfectly, why does she even need Cassandra? Basically the series is asking me to be impressed with Gul Dukat being manipulated by freaking Q. I mean, yeah, it could happen, and that would be a genuine threat to Sisko and Picard, but why the frak would Q even bother? It seems this kind of petty stuff should be beneath Zahn Tiri. If she is this omnipotent, why does she even NEED to fracture the Gothel sisters? The answer is she doesn't, therefore the conflict is forced, therefore the arc of the season was never going to work.
Cassandra is a very useful asset to her because had she immediately unmasked herself after she'd taken form, then Cassandra would most certainly team up with Rapunzel, and their powers combined might rival hers. Or it might not. We still have no idea.
 
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ShadowBlinky

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Despite how things turned out, it was nice seeing Rapunzel and Cassandra team up again for a while. What was up with that (smaller) mole, though?
Wow, Gothel. Just wow. I always knew you were a piece of work, but....:mad:
 

Light Lucario

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Does anyone think that Cass will find that mirror piece and see the truth about her mother?
That is possible. One would think that falling from such a huge height would shatter it completely, but this is also a magic mirror and having more solid proof that she's being manipulated would probably be key in Cassandra changing sides.

Cassandra is a very useful asset to her because had she immediately unmasked herself after she'd taken form, then Cassandra would most certainly team up with Rapunzel, and their powers combined might rival hers. Or it might not. We still have no idea.
I thought that Zhan Tiri needs both the Sun and Moon Stones to be fully revived. Their clash during Cassandra's Revenge allowed the ghost girl form to become solid and visible to everyone. Having at least the Moon Stone under her control in a sense gives Zhan Tiri a huge advantage in terms of regaining their full power and affecting Rapunzel.

Anyway, I thought that this episode was pretty good. I kind of loved how Rapunzel initially reacted to kids seeing a ghost. She had seen ghosts before, so there was no doubt, which is just kind of refreshing. It honestly would be interesting if Gothel's ghost suddenly came back, if only because of how she'd react to Cassandra, but that would be too much of an easy solution to the conflict potentially. The setup was pretty standard with the hero and villain having a temporary cease fire until they got out of danger, but it was nice to see them slowly opening up with each other again. Despite everything she has done, Cassandra still cares for Rapunzel. That certainly doesn't justify or excuse everything she has done, but it does show that their bond is still there and it was nice to see it for a bit again.

Gothel having a room of magic mirrors does make a lot of sense. She was vain, so she'd want constant reminders of her beauty. They obviously needed to create more tension between them after their sisterly bond was starting to form, but it was pretty sad how Cassandra thinks that Rapunzel would be manipulative enough to hide evidence that Gothel did love her. Even if that mirror was telling the truth, would Gothel actually having a shred of love for Cassandra really change anything about her? She still kidnapped Rapunzel, abandoned Cassandra and despite effectively raising Rapunzel as her own, only treated her as an object. She only wanted Rapunzel as her magic hair to keep her young and beautiful. She was a cold, manipulative and emotionally abusive parent for both Rapunzel and Cassandra. Having genuine love for Cassandra wouldn't necessarily make her a more complex villain, especially when it isn't uncommon for abusive people to love the person they're hurting or treat them better in cycles. The main aspect of Gothel that sticks out to me is how her emotional abuse techniques can be painfully accurate, so this pretty much fits in that regard.

It also makes me really wonder if Cassandra was starved for more open affection throughout most of her life. The Captain clearly loves her and I think that she truly respected him before finding out who her birth mother was, but he may not have been the best father. He wasn't abusive, but he might have been too strict for someone like Cassandra, especially when she was already craving affection from Gothel before being abandoned. That would fit with how he wanted to start all over again with a different Cassandra. I'm sure he cared for her when she was little, but maybe he felt like he wasn't there enough for Cassandra. It's honestly pretty heartbreaking that believing that Gothel had a shred of love for her was enough to make Cassandra keep on her path. They had to keep them separated, but it's just kind of sad that she's that far gone.

That being said, it was still pretty cold and messed up of Cassandra to leave Rapunzel in the cave. Maybe she figured that she'd still find a way out due to her hair, but Rapunzel was trapped in a cave with poison gas. If Pascal hadn't used the bit of music to attract the moles and have them hit the wall, they would have been in some serious trouble. She looked sad about it as she was walking away, but Cassandra effectively left Rapunzel and Pascal to die, so that was pretty harsh.

It's always weird when Eugene doesn't show up for an episode, even though I think it's only happened twice. It was understandable since the main focus of the episode was about Rapunzel and Cassandra's relationship. Eugene wouldn't have much to do and I think that could have made it harder for the two of them to talk and rekindle their bond. Giving Eugen his own separate plot probably wouldn't have connected with the main conflict and would have given them less time to focus on Rapunzel and Cassandra.

I do really hope that they'll eventually have Eugene try to reach out to Cassandra though. A part of me wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't happen in a way. Their relationship was always more confrontational and aggressive than what Rapunzel and Cassandra have, so it might be hard for Cassandra to even want to listen to him. She wouldn't even talk to Rapunzel until they're lives were in danger. I just hope that they don't forget that Eugene and Cassandra were friends too. They still fought and argued a lot, but Eugene thought of Cassandra as a sister in the season two finale, which is something that he never would have said during season one and showed how much their relationship had improved by that point. I don't blame them for primarily focusing on Rapunzel and Cassandra's relationship during this season. The betrayal would hurt Rapunzel the most considering how close they were and she never had to deal with losing a friend like that before. I just hope that Eugene can have a nice moment to try to reach out to Cassandra. I think it's possible given that Varian and the Captain also had moments of trying to reach out to Cassandra, even though the latter was in a flashback. Overall, it was a pretty good episode.
 
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zoombie

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I am pretty sure tomorrow's episode takes place at the same time as "Tale Of Two Sisters". I guess we will find out.
 

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