"Tangled: The Series" Talkback (Spoilers)

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Radiant97

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I have two questions:
- I missed "Be Very Afraid!". Is it filler? Can I skip it for now?
Absolutely not.
- I also missed "Day of the Animals", but it will get a rerun next week. Can I watch it after "Pascal's Dragon" and "Island's Apart", or should these be watched in order?

We are now getting episodes 2 weeks after the USA!
It's not that relevant to the main plot (if at all), so sure, I guess.
 
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SweetShop209

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I can imagine a scenario like with Prisma (Sofia The First) can apply to Cassandra, where she will feel sorry for what she did, but choose to go to jail for what she did.
 

Light Lucario

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I don't forgive Varian because he was never properly punished or had to pay restitution for his behavior. I am a very firm believer that characters are responsible for their own actions, and that if somebody does something bad, there must be consequences to that behavior. Real ones. I don't subscribe the the Joss Whedon notion of redemption involving simply feeling really really bad about it. And that's basically what betrayal tropes all involve whenever they buy it back.
I'm not really sure how you think that there wasn't real consequences to Varian's actions. He spent at least a few months in prison, if not longer depending on how much time passed between the season one finale and the season three premiere. That sounds like he was properly punished, or at much as they could realistically allow for him to be punished in this series. I think it's also pretty harsh to just dismiss that notion for redemption like that. In Varian's case, it isn't just a matter of feeling really bad about what he did that allow his redemption to work for me. He dealt with his feelings, actively worked to become a better person to help save the kingdom and even after the season premiere, he still had to work towards overcoming his trauma. Feeling bad about what he did was part of his redemption, but I don't think that was the whole deal either or why I think it worked.

Fone Bone said:
Here is the thing: I AM biased against that trope. Big time. But I have never been wrong about it. And the fact that the season is shaking out exactly like I described which is why that bias exists in the first place. I am begging the show to prove me wrong. But it's doing exactly what I said it would do down to the letter. You may be willing to give the series the benefit of the doubt until the end, but I'm not because we are precisely where we are supposed to be. The season will either end with an unearned redemption for Cass that she doesn't deserve, or the one positive female friendship on the show is destroyed forever. There is no third option. That is the precise reason the betrayal trope never works. Because there is no third option, and the only two existing options suck butt.

I would love to be proved wrong. But we are exactly where I knew we'd be, which means the series is not going to subvert the trope, or engage in it in a new way. It's simply using it in a straightforward manner. And since the trope tends to destroy everything it touches, I do not have high hopes for any sort of resolution. I may be biased against this type of storytelling. But I come to those biases honestly, and through decades of heartbreak and bad television. If this show proves me wrong, nobody will sing higher praises about it than myself. But it won't. That's how sure I am.
I really don't like how you keep treating your opinions as facts here. Maybe it's just how I'm reading your tone, but I don't think it's fair to claim that it never works as if it's a fact. That's why I think that you never gave the show a proper chance with this twist, along with the whole bias issue. I think that you were too caught up with your feelings on this troupe from the moment to think it could ever work. The fact that you claim it has had no impact on the story or characters is especially telling. Claiming that a troupe has never works simply because it never worked for you personally and then treating your reading of it as absolute fact just seems kind of harsh and unfair to me. I'm not saying that your opinion or your feelings on this troupe are wrong, although I would say that the notion that this twist has had no impact on the story or characters is not true. I do think that your issues stem far more from your personal bias rather than from any flaws in the series, which is why saying that the show is worse for this surprise betrayal seems way too harsh to me.

I have two questions:
- I missed "Be Very Afraid!". Is it filler? Can I skip it for now?
- I also missed "Day of the Animals", but it will get a rerun next week. Can I watch it after "Pascal's Dragon" and "Island's Apart", or should these be watched in order?

We are now getting episodes 2 weeks after the USA!
Be Very Afraid is a fairly important episode. I don't think you'd be too confused if you skip it, but it might be better to watch it sooner rather than later. It might be kind of weird to see Day of the Animals after Island's Apart, if only because of the different tones in those episodes, but you can if you wish to do so. I prefer to watch episodes in order whenever possible, but that's my personal preference.
 

RainbowCupcake

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You CANNOT skip "Be Very Afraid!" It is definitely a more plot heavy episode and just a wild ride overall. It's one of my favorites of the season.

As for "Day of the Animals," you could probably watch it after the other two that you mentioned and be fine. Personally, I like watching episodes in order if I can, but you'd probably be able to get away with watching them out of order in this instance.
 

Fone Bone

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I'm not really sure how you think that there wasn't real consequences to Varian's actions. He spent at least a few months in prison, if not longer depending on how much time passed between the season one finale and the season three premiere. That sounds like he was properly punished, or at much as they could realistically allow for him to be punished in this series. I think it's also pretty harsh to just dismiss that notion for redemption like that. In Varian's case, it isn't just a matter of feeling really bad about what he did that allow his redemption to work for me. He dealt with his feelings, actively worked to become a better person to help save the kingdom and even after the season premiere, he still had to work towards overcoming his trauma. Feeling bad about what he did was part of his redemption, but I don't think that was the whole deal either or why I think it worked.
He did more crimes after he escaped from prison and was never punished for them at all. He just got a mulligan. I'm not saying I actually hate Varian the way I do Cass. But his redemption arc didn't work.
I really don't like how you keep treating your opinions as facts here. Maybe it's just how I'm reading your tone, but I don't think it's fair to claim that it never works as if it's a fact. That's why I think that you never gave the show a proper chance with this twist, along with the whole bias issue. I think that you were too caught up with your feelings on this troupe from the moment to think it could ever work. The fact that you claim it has had no impact on the story or characters is especially telling. Claiming that a troupe has never works simply because it never worked for you personally and then treating your reading of it as absolute fact just seems kind of harsh and unfair to me. I'm not saying that your opinion or your feelings on this troupe are wrong, although I would say that the notion that this twist has had no impact on the story or characters is not true. I do think that your issues stem far more from your personal bias rather than from any flaws in the series, which is why saying that the show is worse for this surprise betrayal seems way too harsh to me.
My opinions are just my opinions. But I don't couch them under the guise of "I could be wrong" in every post I make. That should go without saying. There is every possibility your opinions are closer to truth than mine are. But it's not my job as a debater to validate the opposing side's opinion for them. Frankly you're doing a pretty good job of that on your own, so you don't really need me to make that distinction here for you. You are an excellent debater, especially since your rebuttals are fairly in-depth. But I treat my opinions as facts to ME, if no-one else. That's how opinions should work. At least... wait for it... in my opinion. :D
 

Light Lucario

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He did more crimes after he escaped from prison and was never punished for them at all. He just got a mulligan. I'm not saying I actually hate Varian the way I do Cass. But his redemption arc didn't work.
That is a fair point, but he did help save the kingdom from being destroyed and countless people being killed in the process after talking to Rapunzel. I think that should count for something, especially when he naively thought that no one was going to be hurt when he agreed to team up with those other criminals. Plus, he was attempting to restore the King and Queen's memories. That doesn't negate what he did and I think that they only showed him doing that for one scene before focusing in on their love restoring their memories instead, but it did at least show Varian attempting to atone for his actions.

Fone Bone said:
My opinions are just my opinions. But I don't couch them under the guise of "I could be wrong" in every post I make. That should go without saying. There is every possibility your opinions are closer to truth than mine are. But it's not my job as a debater to validate the opposing side's opinion for them. Frankly you're doing a pretty good job of that on your own, so you don't really need me to make that distinction here for you. You are an excellent debater, especially since your rebuttals are fairly in-depth. But I treat my opinions as facts to ME, if no-one else. That's how opinions should work. At least... wait for it... in my opinion. :D
I generally try to see opinions as more subjective, at least when it comes to shows, movies and other forms of media. I can hate some shows with an intense passion, while other people can love those same shows immensely. Neither opinion would be inherently more right or wrong than the other, especially when personal feelings often do factor into how much people can enjoy a show. That might be another reason why we disagree on this issue now that I think of it. I appreciate the compliment though. While it still seems a bit harsh to me, I can at least understand where you're coming from and I recognize that this troupe is a big possibly sore spot for you personally.
 
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Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
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I generally try to see opinions as more subjective, at least when it comes to shows, movies and other forms of media. I can hate some shows with an intense passion, while other people can love those same shows immensely. Neither opinion would be inherently more right or wrong than the other, especially when personal feelings often do factor into how much people can enjoy a show. That might be another reason why we disagree on this issue now that I think of it. I appreciate the compliment though. While it still seems a bit harsh to me, I can at least understand where you're coming from and I recognize that this troupe is a big possibly sore spot for you personally.
You also have to keep in mind that I'm a writer. I channel a LOT about what I do and don't like about popular culture into Gilda And Meek. That's the precise reason Gilda has a "b.s. detector" that never fails: So that the reader knows that surprise betrayals are completely off the table. I feel very strongly about this, and as far as Gilda And Meek And The Un-Iverse are concerned, I put my money where my mouth is.
 
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RainbowCupcake

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"Cassandra's Revenge:" I stupidly didn't realize that this episode was an extended special and stayed up WAY too late trying to watch it all in one sitting. Anyway, I thought the episode was intense but very good. I didn't enjoy it quite as much as some of the previous specials, but it still matched the high quality that this show is known for. The opening song was a nice, relaxing way of warning the audience that EVERYTHING was about to go wrong. I found it really sweet that Rapunzel wanted to propose to Eugene; you usually see the boy propose to the girl, so I appreciated the show trying to break this gender stereotype. I can't believe that Eugene is 26; what's the age difference between him and Rapunzel again? Cassandra crashing the party was eerily similar to Maleficent invading Aurora's birthday party. I'm sure that was intentional. I definitely forgot that Varian had the scroll. There seem to be a lot of "little details" that I miss in this show. I didn't see capturing Varian coming; an interesting twist. The second song in the episode was a step up from the first, imo. I love duets and I never would have guessed that these two characters would have one. But it worked super well and that 360 degree tracking shot towards the end was SO SMOOTH.

The rest of the episode had some great action. I was surprised to see a third and fourth incantation added. They sure made for an epic fight scene. It made me sad to see Cassandra pick on the boys to try and "break Rapunzel's spirit," according to the Blue Girl. Speaking of her, I am a little puzzled on who can and cannot see her. She only appears to Cassandra, but she can also manipulate Varian's dreams? Maybe it's not something to be questioned. By the way, that dream sequence was freaky. The Blue Girl continues to get more and more deranged as these episodes continue on.

One nitpick about the special I had was that it seemed like Lance and the girls (Catalina and Kiera) didn't really do much. They made for some light comic relief, but that was about it. Kiera literally remarks that they're "missing all the action."

So it's finally revealed that the Blue Girl is Zhan Tiri. I don't think many were surprised about that twist. I'm very curious to see how the dynamic between Cass and the Blue Girl/Zhan Tiri will change going forward.

Another solid special. Can't wait for what happens next, although I am sad to say that it will be over before we know it!
 
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Light Lucario

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"Cassandra's Revenge:" I stupidly didn't realize that this episode was an extended special and stayed up WAY too late trying to watch it all in one sitting. Anyway, I thought the episode was intense but very good. I didn't enjoy it quite as much as some of the previous specials, but it still matched the high quality that this show is known for. The opening song was a nice, relaxing way of warning the audience that EVERYTHING was about to go wrong. I found it really sweet that Rapunzel wanted to propose to Eugene; you usually see the boy propose to the girl, so I appreciated the show trying to break this gender stereotype. I can't believe that Eugene is 26; what's the age difference between him and Rapunzel again? Cassandra crashing the party was eerily similar to Maleficent invading Aurora's birthday party. I'm sure that was intentional. I definitely forgot that Varian had the scroll. There seem to be a lot of "little details" that I miss in this show. I didn't see capturing Varian coming; an interesting twist. The second song in the episode was a step up from the first, imo. I love duets and I never would have guessed that these two characters would have one. But it worked super well and that 360 degree tracking shot towards the end was SO SMOOTH.
Rapunzel was nineteen at the end of season one and I'm pretty sure that at least a year has passed in-universe since then, so she should be about twenty, even though I don't think that her birthday has come up yet. A six year age gap isn't too bad when they're both adults and their relationship has a firm foundation of love, trust and communication.

I never would have expected a duet between Varian and Cassandra either, but it works so well and it's more fitting the more I think about it. Cassandra's path is quite similar to Varian's. He took out all of his grief and anger on innocent people, firmly believed that he was in the right while everyone who ignored him were in the wrong and refused to listen to anyone trying to reason with him. Cassandra is lashing out for similar reasons, although she is more intense and poses more of a major threat than what Varian did. Varian pointing out that this path does nothing to help anyone out in the end makes a lot of sense.
 

Radiant97

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Okay so, is Cassandra really gonna go to war with Corona? How could Zhan Tiri have convinced her to go that route without revealing who she really is or what her true evil intentions are? What's their endgame here?

Also, I'm still not fully accustomed to seeing Cassandra as a villain. It looks like she's trying way too hard to look evil.
 
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zoombie

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Race To The Spire

Okay I do have one problem with this episode, I think we all know what it is, but I think we will get to that later.

First of all, this Calliope, for a genius, she is not very smart or her arrogance clouds her better judgement. Once you know the shape shifting clock is missing, you keep you dam mouth shut till you figure everything out. But she just blabs because loves showing off what she knows. And in the end, she places the blames on our heroes, "sorry you blow it", man that little twerp. I am on Eugene's side here.

The one problem I have, is why did Zhan Tiri have to come back and reveal everything to Rapunzel. Again just arrogance. I expect that for Calliope, but Zhan Tiri should not be that stupid. She gains nothing by this, just wants to crow.

One thing that could save this episode, is if something happens in a later episode. I am hoping this is the case, it would make no sense in her character if Cassandra wants to destroy Corona. One thing for Zhan Tiri to able to convince her to want to kill Rapunzel and convince her that Rapunzel is to blame for everything that has gone wrong with her life. But to want to hurt a whole kingdom which is full of innocent people that has nothing to do with this. Not to mention her adopted father. That takes Cass to the border line of irredeemable. I am thinking that Cass is plotting to use the weapon, and the brotherhood to try to re seal Zhan Tiri, and of course that will fail.
 
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ShadowBeast

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Race to the Spire: Good episode. I love the explanation for why Cassandra is still working for Zhan Tiri and that Zhan Tiri has control of her. I like how Rapunzel was smart enough to not fall for the fake Calliope, because I saw that Calliope being a fake coming a mile no, 20 miles away. I was expecting it to have been Cassandra though, but I questioned even that (I can't picture Cassandra being a good actor of such a goofy character).

First of all, this Calliope, for a genius, she is not very smart or her arrogance clouds her better judgement. Once you know the shape shifting clock is missing, you keep you dam mouth shut till you figure everything out. But she just blabs because loves showing off what she knows. And in the end, she places the blames on our heroes, "sorry you blow it", man that little twerp. I am on Eugene's side here.
Being a genius tends to include having a big ego and wanting to brag as part of the package. It's a genius's Achilles Heel.

The one problem I have, is why did Zhan Tiri have to come back and reveal everything to Rapunzel. Again just arrogance. I expect that for Calliope, but Zhan Tiri should not be that stupid. She gains nothing by this, just wants to crow.
It might not be completely out of arrogance. Rapunzel and the others have dealt with Zhan Tiri's followers and none of them were easy to deal with, and Zhan Tiri would easily put them all to shame.
I think Zhan Tiri's biggest intention was to induce intimidation and fear to Rapunzel as she/it even mentions of having different forms, thus bringing more mystery to the villain.
 
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zoombie

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Race to the Spire: Good episode. I love the explanation for why Cassandra is still working for Zhan Tiri and that Zhan Tiri has control of her. I like how Rapunzel was smart enough to not fall for the fake Calliope, because I saw that Calliope being a fake coming a mile no, 20 miles away. I was expecting it to have been Cassandra though, but I questioned even that (I can't picture Cassandra being a good actor of such a goofy character).
That and the height just doesn't match up. To play a shrimp like Calliope, you need another shrimp. It just a mater of science and logic to figure that out.
 

ShadowBeast

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That and the height just doesn't match up. To play a shrimp like Calliope, you need another shrimp. It just a mater of science and logic to figure that out.
Except magic tends to throw science and logic out the window. Part of the cloak's name is shapeshift after all, and usually includes height too.
 
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zoombie

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Except magic tends to throw science and logic out the window. Part of the cloak's name is shapeshift after all, and usually includes height too.
Yeah, a short person can shape shift someone taller, but a person shape shifting someone must shorter than them, that could hurt their bodies. All that exact mass has to go somewhere.
 

ShadowBeast

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Yeah, a short person can shape shift someone taller, but a person shape shifting someone must shorter than them, that could hurt their bodies. All that exact mass has to go somewhere.
Again, logic goes out the the window. Mass means nothing. We've had characters turned into birds and toddlers, and Calliope was about to be sucked into a lamp that would've been way too small even for her.
 

zoombie

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What do you think? You think Cassandra post "Cassandra's Return", is truly as behind Zhan Tiri as appears to be. I am thinking no, I don't think Zhan Tiri has Cassandra as much under her thumb as she thinks. I expect the moment is going to come, when they gather the troops, time to attack Corona, it looks like they are going to attack, when Cass gives the order for them to attack Zhan Tiri. Of course that is going to fail, and going to have to come crawling back to Rapunzel and company.
 

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