"Tangled: The Series" Talkback (Spoilers)

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I.R. Shokew

HAIL NEO ARCADIA!
The cliffhanger ending is a bit annoying to see happen (well, at first glance). To be fair, let's face it - that Cass clearly was a fake, a puppet of the true villain for this show that's been hinted at after that Great Tree Event and the 2-3 episodes stuck in that stupid house.

Regardless, I Kinda saw that coming from a mile away, honestly. Still, it's a good (High Tier) buildup to definitely something much bigger, IMHO.

After this, all I can say is BRING ON SEASON 3!!! ...And, with this new development, may the show come to end on a hopefully high note. It definitely deserves that much, unlike some shows I've dissed on (and am not proud of doing so to, as of late...).
 

Korra_Fan

Active Member
To be fair, let's face it - that Cass clearly was a fake, a puppet of the true villain for this show that's been hinted at after that Great Tree Event and the 2-3 episodes stuck in that stupid house.
There is no evidence that it's a fake, and in fact a lot more evidence to the contrary - note that when Rapunzel hugged her before the turn happened, she clearly looked sad and guilt-ridden. And the line about it being her destiny and the fact that she's basically become Rapunzel's moon-based dark counterpart holds no weight if it's a fake. Plus we already DID the "fake Cass" thing in the mirror episode. This is the real Cass. Whatever she learned inside that room in the mansion clearly affected her and is informing her actions. We just have yet to learn what that is, but we will in Season 3.
 

Light Lucario

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I thought that this season finale was really good. I was glad to see that Eugene didn't keep that fortune secret since that would have backfired on him if that happened. It was pretty intense right from the start with that first attack. Although, the bird constantly hitting itself instead of fighting Paschal was pretty hilarious, especially with Paschal's confused expression. I was so excited when they revealed that the king was Eugene's father. I had a strong feeling that we'd learn about Eugene's past on the road and even that he could be connected to the Dark Kingdom, but seeing that I was right made me really happy. And it did feel fitting since we've known little of Eugene's past and I thought that even reminding the audience that he didn't know when he was born was building up to something. I was a bit surprised that they basically confirmed Eugene's age. They've been pretty vague about that since the movie, so that was a bit unexpected.

I really liked how they handled Eugene siding with his father. There were hints even in this episode with Eugene being afraid at just the thought of something happening to Rapunzel. Learning that the Moon Stone killed his mother would make him more unsure about Rapunzel's destiny and more willing to side with his father. I liked that both Lance and Cassandra reassured her after Eugene's betrayal, especially when Lance is primarily used for comedy relief.

Eugene's song was so good and easily one of the best ones from this series thus far. There was just a lot of emotion in those lyrics. Eugene thought that he already knew what he wanted to do and where he wanted to be, but learning that he's the Dark Kingdom prince just made him question everything about him. His entire worldview and identity were thrown out the window, so that would shake him up a lot. I liked how realizing that he was the one who betrayed Rapunzel made him realize his mistake though. He believes in Rapunzel so deeply and even though he wanted to protect her, he ended up hurting her in a way.

I wasn't expecting the king to be so strong, but that did make him more of a threat after his scenes with Eugene made him a bit too comical. It was rather sweet how excited Rapunzel looked like when the king called Eugene son. Even in the mist of all this chaos, she was happy that Eugene found out where he came from. The ghost of their ancestors coming back was a bit strange, but I liked Eugene's confrontation with his father. He might have been destined to return to his kingdom, but to help Rapunzel stop the cycle instead of doing it himself. I liked how they ended up defeating the ghosts. Eugene's family has been so consumed by this duty to protect the Moon Stone that they've lost everything. They can't even rest in the afterlife and Eugene's father has been isolated for years. They could only be stopped by destroying their legacy. I thought it was a nice touch to show just how trapped Eugene's family has been for centuries.

It was really touching to see both Cassandra and Eugene support Rapunzel as she went over to the moon stone. Unfortunately, I saw a brief image with Cassandra's blue hair just before watching the episode, so the twist was a bit spoiled for me, but I didn't see her new outfit. That kind of makes the armor outfit she got seem more like a cocoon in retrospect. Plus, I still really liked how they handled the twist with the fortune. I kept thinking throughout the episode that Cassandra could be a red herring, especially once Eugene realized that he betrayed Rapunzel instead, but they kind of had both of them betray her without it feeling forced or out of nowhere. Eugene would never willingly betray Rapunzel unless he thought he was protecting her, which he did. Something obviously happened to Cassandra when they were in that house and she mentioned how everyone has a destiny, which seemed a bit unusual for her.

I doubt that this is a fake Cassandra. She was far too convincing to be another fake. I wouldn't necessarily rule out some form of mind control, but that also seems a bit unlikely for similar reasons. I figured that Rapunzel wouldn't touch the Moon Stone when they still have another season left to go, but I was not expecting them to end the season on a massive cliffhanger. I remember reading some theories that Varian could become the dark counterpart to Rapunzel after the first season, but Cassandra taking on that role instead if quite unexpected. It makes sense given her focus during the past few episodes, but I just didn't see it coming.

Overall, it was a really good episode and a solid season finale. I just hope it won't take them too long to air season three or to go on really long breaks during the season itself. That long gap between the first and second half of this season really affected its pacing.
 

I.R. Shokew

HAIL NEO ARCADIA!
There is no evidence that it's a fake, and in fact a lot more evidence to the contrary - note that when Rapunzel hugged her before the turn happened, she clearly looked sad and guilt-ridden. And the line about it being her destiny and the fact that she's basically become Rapunzel's moon-based dark counterpart holds no weight if it's a fake. Plus we already DID the "fake Cass" thing in the mirror episode. This is the real Cass. Whatever she learned inside that room in the mansion clearly affected her and is informing her actions. We just have yet to learn what that is, but we will in Season 3.
Awwww, dangit - Kinda make sense, too, as well.

sigh As much as I dislike admitting it, Eugene was right to not be trusting of her all along, then... How sad, what with all the bickering and whatnot so early on in the show between those 2.
 

Korra_Fan

Active Member
I can't help but wonder if making Cassandra as unlikable as she was in season 1 intentional or if this is a reaction to that.
Definitely intentional. The overarching story and character journeys across all 3 seasons was planned from the start, so Cassandra was always meant to be the one who basically becomes the Anti-Rapunzel.

It wouldn't be a reaction, since Cass became a lot more likable toward the end of S1 and in this season. It's a pretty brilliant ploy: they start her out as a divisive character, then gradually get you on her side, making the inevitable betrayal sting all the more. I'm sure she'll redeem herself in the end, though.
 

I.R. Shokew

HAIL NEO ARCADIA!
Definitely intentional. The overarching story and character journeys across all 3 seasons was planned from the start, so Cassandra was always meant to be the one who basically becomes the Anti-Rapunzel.

It wouldn't be a reaction, since Cass became a lot more likable toward the end of S1 and in this season. It's a pretty brilliant ploy: they start her out as a divisive character, then gradually get you on her side, making the inevitable betrayal sting all the more. I'm sure she'll redeem herself in the end, though.
I really hope she does, honestly (especially so no one in the main cast tries something overly violent in order to stop her proper.); I'm one of the people who did grow to like her as a character over time; the bickering between her and Eugene was still pretty annoying, despite how good this show has actually been to me, however.

Also, prepare of some crazy fan art of Cass in her villain form. Don't worry - I won't post any of that here, should it become a thing. You have my word on that.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
But they brilliantly hid it with the fortune ending up being about Eugene being the betrayer and making it seem like Cassandra was a red herring
The way they set it up let me know immediately it was Eugene who was the red herring. They didn't fool me for a second.

Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure "Destinies Collide"

My default mode watching that finale was sighing in resignation every 2 minutes. It was beyond tedious. You knew the ending, they spent the whole episode teasing it, and we basically spent 45 minutes on unrelated nonsense.

What kills me is that the episode itself is padded beyond belief. It would probably only be 11 minutes long if the characters talked to each other like adults. Which is the thing that drives me nuts specifically. Tangled is the one kids show where the characters DO talk out their problems like adults. I am unhappy everyone here suffers from the plot related stupidity of every other kids show.

How can the season justify the journey we took, especially all of the unrelated detours, as long as the last episode is padded and pointless? I think Justice League Unlimited did a great job with its Cadmus finale simply because it brought back things from earlier in the season we thought were unrelated standalone stuff (like the Ultimen and the Dark Heart) and tied everything together. Heck, Big Hero 6 did the same thing with the giant mecha. No, here it actually turns out those pointless detours we took WERE actually pointless and had nothing to do with anything. Can you blame me for resenting the episode and the season? I don't think this arc deserved 5 episodes much less 26.

Tangled was one of my favorite cartoons last year, even if I thought the finale was shaky. This whole season was flawed from the ground up, and led us nowhere but a cliffhanger the show told us would happen at the beginning of the episode, and expects us to be surprised and devastated by it anyways. This is kids show drama at its worst.

Do you know what kills me? DuckTales had a super sucky finale last year too. Which tells me that for many serialized Disney shows, they are better at set-up than pay-off. Which for shows with a ton of set-up is bad. Luckily Big Hero 6 had an amazing finale, but for all I know it could have been a fluke.

For the record Cassandra's betrayal is good for a single reason: It answers the perplexing question of why she was entirely absent during the sequel short "Tangled Ever After". It's not a good answer, but it's an answer nonetheless.

Also for the record, I am well aware Evil Cassandra could turn out to be Mirror Cassandra from an earlier episode. To all those defending this episode for that reason, let me ask you this: If that is true, was what we just saw a remotely appropriate ending to the season? If we learn it's not Cassandra after all, would you feel relief like the producers would want, or jerked around, like how I would feel? The reason the cliffhanger sucks is because it doesn't make the episode better whether Cassandra is truly evil or not.

Do you know what's bad? It turns out the strong kickass woman on the show is a bad guy. Did the producers even stop to think about the message they were sending by doing that?

I hope I'm wrong. I hope the last season doesn't suck. But lord, this was the make-or-break season for the show, and it was totally broken. Please do better next year, producers. *1/2.
 

Korra_Fan

Active Member
You're entitled to your own opinion, but I would like to point out that there's a good chance some of those seemingly pointless detours taken in this season may get paid off in the next/final one. It's like Gravity Falls - nobody thought so much of the stuff that came back into play in the finale would, since they seemed like standalone filler characters/elements. I think this show is aiming for the same kind of thing - once the inevitable big crisis with Zhan Tiri occurs in Season 3, we'll get Quaid, Calliope, those weird German leaf people, and all other allies met along the course of the journey coming back to do their part in helping out. But then, I could be totally wrong about that. We'll just have to see.

Do you know what's bad? It turns out the strong kickass woman on the show is a bad guy. Did the producers even stop to think about the message they were sending by doing that?
Probably not, because there is no such message. Rapunzel and Adira are also strong, kickass women on the show, and they're still good guys. We also had an earlier episode where a strong, kickass woman who was a bad guy (Stalyan) became a good guy. So I'm not seeing any message being sent here - Cassandra's turn has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her character, which was always pretty shady and the type to go off the rails if she felt it was justified, literally since Season 1.
 
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Light Lucario

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I can't help but wonder if making Cassandra as unlikable as she was in season 1 intentional or if this is a reaction to that.
I don't think it could have been a reaction. I don't remember Cassandra being that unlikable in season one and she has become more likable during the course of the series too. Since they planned for this series to be three seasons long, they most likely already planned for Cassandra to become a villain. They wouldn't have every single detail planned out of course, but they probably had most of the major plot developments in mind when working on each season.

Besides all that, out of all of the characters they could choose to turn evil, Cassandra makes the most sense. Eugene could only really become evil through some mind control or thinking he was protecting Rapunzel like he did in this episode. Having him become a flat out villain would feel pretty forced as well when we know that Rapunzel and Eugene still get married. The supporting cast members are fun and likable, but it would be hard to take characters like Lance and Shorty as serious threats because they're mainly used for comedic effect. Evil Shorty would be pretty hilarious though. Adira becoming a villain wouldn't be too much of a stretch when she has been mysterious throughout the season, but it would lack the emotional weight behind it to make the twist work.

That's another reason why Cassandra betraying the group works. She is part of the main trio of the series, has been fleshed out over the course of two seasons and she has strong connections to both Rapunzel and Eugene. Her relationship with Rapunzel has gotten a lot of attention over the course of the series and while she still bickers with Eugene, there's less hatred towards each other. They act more like siblings, so Eugene saying that he loves Cassandra as a sister was both fitting and pretty huge considering how they were when the series began. Rapunzel and Eugene both see Cassandra as a sister, so her betrayal would hit them a lot harder than if anyone else had taken the Moon Stone.

The twist definitely has nothing to do with turning a female character evil. I'm kind of surprised that even came up when her focus during the past few episodes was clearly building up to something. There's no message here about gender when Cassandra isn't the token female lead or the only capable female fighter/fleshed out female character in the series. This was all about her role in the series and how the past few episodes were building up to this twist. If it wasn't for me accidentally seeing part of Cassandra's new design, that cliffhanger ending would have been more intense.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Probably not, because there is no such message. Rapunzel and Adira are also strong, kickass women on the show, and they're still good guys. We also had an earlier episode where a strong, kickass woman who was a bad guy (Stalyan) became a good guy. So I'm not seeing any message being sent here - Cassandra's turn has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her character, which was always pretty shady and the type to go off the rails if she felt it was justified, literally since Season 1.
There is truth in what you say, but I also feel that Rapunzel and Cass are the only real example of female friendship on the show. I don't agree Rapunzel is kickass for one thing, and Adira is not only a new character, but she's barely in the show. I perhaps inartfully stated that it's a bad message to turn a kickass female character bad. But the gender dynamics between her and Rapunzel were literally the only example of a strong female friendship that sometimes passed the Bechdel Test. It's not just the fact that she's a strong woman which hurts the gender dynamics. It's that she's the only real female friend Rapunzel has ever have. And she's the main character. That's a problem to me.

It doesn't matter if the show isn't doing that deliberately to send a message about the unreliability of female friendships. Messages are sent in TV shows all the time whether they were intended or not. I don't like this one and think it hurts one of the best things about the show.

Edit:

Also I think it behooves me to point out that Rapunzel was betrayed by Mother Gothel in the movie. It's not like she was ever given a healthy perspective about female relationships.

Besides all that, out of all of the characters they could choose to turn evil, Cassandra makes the most sense. Eugene could only really become evil through some mind control or thinking he was protecting Rapunzel like he did in this episode. Having him become a flat out villain would feel pretty forced as well when we know that Rapunzel and Eugene still get married. The supporting cast members are fun and likable, but it would be hard to take characters like Lance and Shorty as serious threats because they're mainly used for comedic effect. Evil Shorty would be pretty hilarious though. Adira becoming a villain wouldn't be too much of a stretch when she has been mysterious throughout the season, but it would lack the emotional weight behind it to make the twist work.
I think we are arguing about two different things,. You are arguing about the logic behind the twist. I'm questioning the very idea that they needed to make a character secretly evil at all. I'd argue 100% they did not. It hurt the show. This is not a needed or necessary trope. Do not let television try to convince you otherwise.
 
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Light Lucario

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I think we are arguing about two different things,. You are arguing about the logic behind the twist. I'm questioning the very idea that they needed to make a character secretly evil at all. I'd argue 100% they did not. It hurt the show. This is not a needed or necessary trope. Do not let television try to convince you otherwise.
I think it would be difficult to claim that they absolutely didn't have to make a character secretly evil when we don't even know why Cassandra betrayed them yet. Even questioning if they needed to go in this direction seems a bit much for the same reason, especially when I'm sure that Cassandra becoming a villain is going to be a major conflict for season three. I doubt that she was secretly evil since the start of the series. Whatever happened to Cassandra back in that room clearly had some kind of effect on her. We just don't know what happened to her yet or why she think that absorbing the Moon Stone herself was her destiny.

I can understand not liking the trope or the twist itself, but I don't see how it hurts the show, at least right now. Maybe it could once we learn more about Cassandra's reasons for betraying Rapunzel, but I don't think that's too likely when the twist makes sense at least to me and there was enough buildup to make it work. Shooting down the twist completely as being unnecessary and harmful to the show when we don't know Cassandra's motivation doesn't make sense to me.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Shooting down the twist completely as being unnecessary and harmful to the show when we don't know Cassandra's motivation doesn't make sense to me.
I shoot down the twist solely because I think the surprise betrayal is a harmful trope in all of fiction. I have yet to see one that made a show better and that I liked. I don't expect this show to be the first.
 

Light Lucario

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I shoot down the twist solely because I think the surprise betrayal is a harmful trope in all of fiction. I have yet to see one that made a show better and that I liked. I don't expect this show to be the first.
I still think that's a bit of a harsh reaction. I can understand not liking the trope itself, but what makes or breaks a trope usually comes down to the execution. The execution seems fine thus far based on the setup or at least there's nothing thus far that gives me cause to alarm that they aren't going to handle this twist well in the third season. It's entirely possible that it could become more of an issue once they explore Cassandra's motivation and her role in the third season, but I don't think that the trope itself is problematic enough for me to worry about that right now.

I don't really see how it's going to harm the show. If anything, Cassandra becoming a villain could provide some really good and emotional confrontations for both Rapunzel and Eugene to give the third season a more dramatic weight to it.
 

Last Spider

Arachnid Dude
I don't think it could have been a reaction. I don't remember Cassandra being that unlikable in season one and she has become more likable during the course of the series too.
Well I'm not seeing what you are, in season 1 she's mostly a self-righteous hypocrite, in season 2 I haven't found her to be better just less bad since constantly insulting Eugene has stopped being a major character trait but overall she still keeps at of the stuff that unbearable in season 1.
Just looking back at something like "Challenge of the Brave" makes me think it was long game foreshadowing.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
I still think that's a bit of a harsh reaction. I can understand not liking the trope itself, but what makes or breaks a trope usually comes down to the execution. The execution seems fine thus far based on the setup or at least there's nothing thus far that gives me cause to alarm that they aren't going to handle this twist well in the third season. It's entirely possible that it could become more of an issue once they explore Cassandra's motivation and her role in the third season, but I don't think that the trope itself is problematic enough for me to worry about that right now.

I don't really see how it's going to harm the show. If anything, Cassandra becoming a villain could provide some really good and emotional confrontations for both Rapunzel and Eugene to give the third season a more dramatic weight to it.
It harms the show because I found the dynamic between Cass, Rapunzel, and Eugene absolutely fascinating before this. It was unlike any other triangle on television because there wasn't sexual tension behind it. The whole subtext of her and Eugene's feud is that both thinks the other is bad for Rapunzel, and don't want to say it to make her choose sides, because they each fear she'd choose the other. I found the entire thing one of the most interesting psychological set-ups ever in a kids show. If Cass is evil, the dynamic is not only gone, but it was never there to begin with. It hurts the show.
 

Korra_Fan

Active Member
I don't agree Rapunzel is kickass for one thing
That.......does not compute.

As lately as "Rapunzel: Day One" and "Rapunzeltopia" we've seen how kickass she can be. It's not an opinion, it's an objective fact: the girl can handle herself. Heck, part of Cassandra's whole problem is that Rapunzel has come to outshine her as a heroine and doesn't need any sort of protection from her.

Just looking back at something like "Challenge of the Brave" makes me think it was long game foreshadowing.
Or heck, "Goodbye and Goodwill" from this season. Cassandra definitely cares about Rapunzel, I believe she still cares for her and is rationalizing the betrayal as for Rapunzel's own good. But ultimately, if there is a clash between her love of Rapunzel and her thirst for glory, then the thirst for glory emerges victorious every time. It's been a part of her long before she met Rapunzel, after all.

The whole subtext of her and Eugene's feud is that both thinks the other is bad for Rapunzel, and don't want to say it to make her choose sides, because they each fear she'd choose the other.
Fair enough, but I question how long something like that could be kept up across three whole seasons. The problem is twofold: there's no tension to their fears for us because we know exactly who Rapunzel would and does choose - Eugene. It's part of the curse all the movie characters have on this show: there's no suspense to be had from any of them because we know they turn out all-right, it was flat-out said in the show's pilot. And for another, I think most audience members had their minds made up about who to side with in the feud long before this episode happened: Eugene is the guy who literally died for Rapunzel, while Cassandra's whole friendship with her is too uncomfortably tied to her own issues and desire for heroic glory to the point where they end up clashing. Granted, a final resolution to this conflict did not need to involve Cass going full-blown traitor so I guess that is worth debating.
 
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Light Lucario

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Well I'm not seeing what you are, in season 1 she's mostly a self-righteous hypocrite, in season 2 I haven't found her to be better just less bad since constantly insulting Eugene has stopped being a major character trait but overall she still keeps at of the stuff that unbearable in season 1.
Just looking back at something like "Challenge of the Brave" makes me think it was long game foreshadowing.
Cassandra's attitude did bug me during season one, mainly with being harsh on Eugene and getting on Rapunzel's case for telling him the truth about her hair after he was proven to be trustworthy, but I don't recall her being a huge downside to either season. She was never one of my favorite characters, but I thought she worked for the role given and she does seem to genuinely care about Rapunzel at least.

It harms the show because I found the dynamic between Cass, Rapunzel, and Eugene absolutely fascinating before this. It was unlike any other triangle on television because there wasn't sexual tension behind it. The whole subtext of her and Eugene's feud is that both thinks the other is bad for Rapunzel, and don't want to say it to make her choose sides, because they each fear she'd choose the other. I found the entire thing one of the most interesting psychological set-ups ever in a kids show. If Cass is evil, the dynamic is not only gone, but it was never there to begin with. It hurts the show.
Now that sounds like a more reasonable issue with the twist than just not liking the trope itself. I can understand where you're coming from to a certain point. It is pretty rare for a triangle to not involve some will they/won't they nonsense at some point Granted, it would have been pretty stupid to do that here when the series starts off flat out confirming that Rapunzel and Eugene still get married, but I can still understand appreciating that dynamic all the same. Admittedly, I'm not sure how much of that subtext between Cassandra and Eugene's argument really matches with the show, at least past season one. They still argue with each other, but not as much and they both have come to care about each other. Cassandra from season one wouldn't have been so comfortable with defending Eugene's actions alongside Lance. It might be reading a bit too much into their arguments, but I read too deeply into shows all the time myself.

I don't think that Cassandra being evil necessarily means that the dynamic was never there to begin with. It really depends on why Cassandra betrayed them. It's possible her injured hand along with being in that room unlocked something buried within her, but we don't know that for sure just yet. This doesn't necessarily mean that the Cassandra they've known for the past two seasons wasn't the real one or something like that. It just means that something happened to make Cassandra betray them.

However, the dynamic is most likely going to be gone, depending on their roles for the next season, but I don't think that automatically hurts the show. It is a major shake up to the status quo, but it feels believable and earned after Cassandra's focus during the last stretch of the season. I didn't get the impression that they wanted Cassandra to be evil for the shake of it or for agnst, but to provide some payoff for what they were building up to with her character. Having a former friend be Rapunzel's major villain in the final season is also a good way to provide more personal stakes involved than just fulfilling her destiny, especially if she still has to destroy the Moon Stone despite Cassandra merging with it.

I'm not saying that it's guaranteed to work out perfectly or that I'll be perfectly happy with whatever explanation they'll give for her betrayal. I think the notion that Cassandra is Mother Gothel's biological daughter is still popular. I'm still thrilled that the Dark Prince Eugene theory was confirmed. Most fans are understandably focused on that cliffhanger ending, but Eugene's subplot really stood out for me here. Even so, I don't know how I'd feel about if they had Cassandra related to Mother Gothel. Still, based on the setup, I just don't see a reason to think it's going to hurt the show in the long run right now. There are quite a few good potential developments and storylines that could result from Cassandra's betrayal. It just seems rather harsh to dismiss this development without even giving it a chance.
 

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