Marvel's Spider-Man: Maximum Venom "Generations, Parts 1-2" Talkback (Spoilers)

[RoyalRubble]

Catch a new hour-long episode of Marvel's Spider-Man, tonight starting at 9:00PM ET on Disney XD! The episodes will also be available on DisneyNOW before its debut on TV.

Marvel's Spider-Man: Maximum Venom "Generations, Part 1"
Episode Debut - September 27, 2020

When Spider-Man discovers a vial of Jackal serum at Horizon High, he and Ghost-Spider must track down Jackal’s secret lab in an attempt to destroy the villain’s evil plans before they begin.

Marvel's Spider-Man: Maximum Venom "Generations, Part 2"
Episode Debut - September 27, 2020

Spider-Man, Ghost-Spider, Spider-Girl, and Miles Morales face off against the newly returned Norman Osborn, who has become the Dark Globlin. Osborn has hand selected a new team of villains, each with a personal connection to one of our heroes: Jackal, Tarantula, and Swarm.

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[Kevin's]

I have not really seen the episode but as per the information from Fandom sites Maria corozon got kidnaped by kamelion
And even the head administrator makes an apearence

 

[Pattern_Maker]

Man, this episode reminded me of Final Curtain from Spectacular Spider-Man with how Norman was portrayed. It helps that I watched Final Curtain yesterday too.

I have not really seen the episode but as per the information from Fandom sites Maria corozon got kidnaped by kamelion

Maria was never kidnapped, Chameleon impersonated her since no one related to Anya was a supervillain. At the end of the episode, Anya calls Maria and she is on some Rainforest Research Expedition. I thought Nika Futterman was voicing Maria until I saw the cast list.

Anya was better at hiding her identity just as well as Peter, so Connors and Norman did some heavy research just to screw with her as they did with Miles and Gwen. I wouldn't be surprised if Norman and Jackal knew Gwen and Miles were Ghost-Spider and Spy-D, but Connor's figured out Anya was Spider-Girl in the previous episode. To have Chameleon impersonate Maria implies they did some heavy research on Anya's family.

It was funny how Chameleon let his identity slip when Anya realized "Maria" didn't remember their other sister Angela.

Everyone was right about Swarm being Miles' dad, and his reasoning, even if it was so sudden, made sense with everything that has happened at Horizon.

Gwen and Jackal, now that's what I wanted to see during Spider-Island. Raymond Warren is gone completely, and he even wanted to turn Gwen into a Jackal.

Again with Gwen (and technically Anya) being mentioned to having the Spider-Sense. Unless Jackal was using it as a joke. I feel like asking Kevin Burke or Chris Doc Wyatt about that if they are able too. Fans have been asking them and others who have worked on the show lore and plot questions over the Summer.

Harry in this series has been my favorite version of the character after the Raimi Trilogy. Norman couldn't even manipulate him anymore, and he went ham on Dark Goblin.

All I can say for Norman is that Peter was right. He pushed people away and used people and that is what lead him to his fate.

And Venom never appeared in the episode. Connor's and Chameleon used the Seed to extract symbiote biomass to turn Norman into the Dark Goblin.

 

[Fone Bone]

Marvel's Spider-Man: Maximum Venom "Generations"

That was a television production that existed. For 44 entire minutes. Yes it did.

Let's see. Where to begin?

Technically, I suppose I loved it. That's not something I'm proud to admit (the episode was very flawed and stupid in places) but I am easier to please than many of my harsher reviews of stuff would suggest. This episode achieved a bare minimum standard of pure satisfaction. Take note haters of my reviews: This is essentially my low bar for a guilty pleasure. Anything even slightly worse, I'm gonna rag on it mercilessly.

To be sure, there was a LOT of stuff to rag on. When after the explosion at the school Connors tells the kids to get back to class I was like, "I will never like or respect this show." Half the building just fell down. Fire engines and police aren't called? If anything was worth sending the entire school home early for, it's half the building falling down. I was like "I will never forgive you, Marvel's Spider-Man."

And then they actually did a bit I have been DYING to see in fiction, and all was forgiven. One of the stupid tropes in cartoons is the hero figuring out the password to the locked door by discovering which keypads had fingerprints on them. That is an utterly useless discovery for the reason the show said. Just knowing which buttons to press doesn't tell you in which order to press them, or even how many times you need to. And instead of this show being as dumb as Batman: The Animated Series, it's suddenly smarter than it about that one thing. The DNA being the lock unopener was genius too, although I might crossly point out Gwen didn't actually take of her glove the second time she used it, so the show doesn't get full points for it.

Here is the reason I was able to come back from the kids being sent back to class: It's a failure in the story rather than in the characters. Black Panther's Quest was terribly written too, but that was because the characters themselves were so dumb and / or tiresome. And this bad thing happened just the once this episode, and Hawkeye and T'Challa were nonstop awful, and never shut it off. I'll forgive this show after all.

If upon being licked by a Venom Symbiote either T'Challa or Clint said, "Joke's on you, I'm just getting over a cold," I might not have hated that show unreservedly. You can't hate any show unreservedly with a line like that in it. It's just not possible.

Jackal is good crazy. Goblin is bad crazy. What's the difference? Jackal refuses to monologue to Spidey about his actual plans and leaves him to die. He's dumb enough to leave the death unattended (which is a total Batman '66 move) but in fairness to him, staying would have actually killed him too. Jackal is only defeated when he takes the time to monologue his crazy plan to Gwen long enough for Miles to save her (almost incidentally in fact).

Goblin's craziness is like Nth-level bad crazy. He's so pathetic after he's beaten solely because he had built himself and his plan up so much in that long, crazy monologue, explaining everything like it was going out of style, and as if nobody else had places to be. If he hadn't done that, he could have ended the episode saying, "Whatevs, loser," as the cops take him away with his head held high, while he's giving Peter the finger. Instead when his plan comes so EASILY crashing down instead, it's like, "You are dumb and embarrassing. Peter deserves smarter and more worthy enemies.".

He correctly points out that Peter's strength is his support system. So he creates a team to take it down. Without ever bothering to make that team into a support system for himself to begin with.

Case in point: Swarm is a loser. Swarm is an idiot. He's fighting the very person he's trying to save and almost killed him numerous times. Norman thought somebody like THAT would make a reliable ally? Especially when villains are unmasking hero identities left and right? Seriously?

Similarly, I cannot believe he decided to burn Connors when he did. He hadn't actually won yet. And he could have correctly pointed out that a temporary cure is better than nothing, and still had him on the hook for that. Instead he blows that asset for no reason because he needs to gloat. Dumb, ineffective villain is dumb and ineffective.

I don't think John DiMaggio gets enough credit for how flawlessly he mimics Mark Hamill's performance as the Joker for the Jackal. Truthfully, maybe some scorn is due for it too. But if and when Hamill croaks, and there is a future DCAU project without him, I want DiMaggio voicing Timmverse Joker instead of Troy Baker.

And there was an aspect to the episode I loved and hated in equal measure. Does it count as The Surprise Betrayal Trope if it's a person we JUST met this episode? Yes? No? Well, it still didn't work. And then it's revealed it's the Chameleon and The Surprise Betrayal Trope Worked For The First Time EVER In Television History After All! Except then it's not actual betrayal so The Curse Of The Surprise Betrayal Trope Never Working remains unbroken. I think. Truthfully, I'm a little confused as to whether it actually worked or not. Maybe? Go Team Whut!

I groaned at Connors telling Peter he was no longer allowed to be Spider-Man on campus. I was like, "How cute. You still think you're gonna be principle when this is all over." Apparently Jackal and Normal aren't the only crazy people on the show.

So yes, those 44 minutes of time in my life just passed right by. They were good minutes and never hurt anybody. And I do not actually mourn their passing because I don't feel they were wasted. At least not completely. I'm mean, seriously, Connors. Send the kids home after the building falls down. For crying out loud. ****.

 

[colomb]

And Venom never appeared in the episode. Connor's and Chameleon used the Seed to extract symbiote biomass to turn Norman into the Dark Goblin.

If there was no Venom, what was the thing that attacked Gwen in the preview if it wasn't the symbiote? Or was that scene not in this episode?

 

[Pattern_Maker]

If there was no Venom, what was the thing that attacked Gwen in the preview if it wasn't the symbiote? Or was that scene not in this episode?

It was another Synthetic-Symbiote, this time created by Jackal. Connors, Chameleon, and Jackal used the Seed from Web of Venom to create a Synthetic-Symbiote to turn Norman into Dark Goblin, and Jackal created another just to restrain Gwen.

 

[Frontier]

It sure didn't take long for Connors to turn the school into full-on totalitarian mode. I wouldn't have minded the uniforms though .

The show finally remembers Connors transformed into The Lizard back in season 1. I guess they couldn't go any further without mentioning it when his transformation became important to the plot and his entire character motivation (because of course a cure never sticks with The Lizard) .

Is Grady going to figure out Peter's Spider-Man? On the one hand he saw him holding up debris like no normal person could, but on the other hand, Grady's kind of dumb...

So Gwen's only been searching for the The Jackal for the past few weeks? This isn't something she's had on her mind ever since he got away at the end of Spider-Island or throughout season 2? Then again, I guess she's no more guilty for that then Peter is .

Just so Anya isn't left out as being the only main character on this show without a family member, in comes her step-sister Maria who is actually the Maria Vasquez Tarantula from the comics (I guess Vasquez was her old last name). Of course, she doesn't actually turn out to be Tarantula anyway, so it's kind of a weird reference, but at least Anya doesn't have a Supervillain for a big sister .

"Spider-Dust?" Uh...I don't think that's actually something a spider can do .

Gwen has gloves? It's not just a full onesie? I think Peter's taken his gloves off too but I didn't know if that was true for the other costumes. Actually, she didn't even need to take the gloves off because the DNA recognition worked with her gloves on .

Hey, it's The Jackal! Who we haven't seen in, like 30 or so episodes. Still crazy as a loon, which John DiMaggio plays well, but at least we finally got some resolution there. Just too bad Peter couldn't be there to help finally beat him .

That was a way more effective villain reveal compared to when Adrian Toomes turned out to be the Goblin King. I'm still kind of disappointed that we still just can't get a normal Green Goblin on this show, but at least it was actually Norman Osborn this time who is now as deranged and obsessed with Spider-Man as ever .

So how did they figure out everybody's secret identity? Did they figure out Peter and then think to themselves that it was probably likely that the three other people he's always hanging out with and who happen to match the gender ratio of the other Spiders were said Spiders? I mean, Gwen should be obvious but the show never really draws attention to how no one realizes Gwen Stacy is Ghost Spider. And are they just going to assume Chameleon, Osborn, and Jackal aren't going to blab about their identities in prison ?

Ah, putting focus on Spider-Man's "support" to the point where Osborn formed his own team to match Peter's team (that's only really been a team for, like, a few days at best). I guess Norman has a point. Has Peter ever actually beaten a major villain or resolved a major situation without help on this show (I guess he ultimately resolved Spider-Island)? As it is he barely got to fight the Dark Goblin on his own before Harry showed up. He didn't even get the final hit in !

Should I feel bad for Connors? I mean, yeah, nobody should be forcibly transformed into a Lizard but he was way too antagonistic and complicit in Obsorn's schemes for me to feel bad about him. Maybe if he seemed more conflicted about it, but he didn't .

Jefferson Morales turning out to be Swarm because he's angry at Superheroes for what happened when Miles was an idiot with his powers was...so random. Like he hasn't appeared at all since that one episode in season 1 and now suddenly he's Swarm and some misguided villain because he was completely oblivious about his son? Felt like a big shift to buy into .

It's nice to see Gwen with her hair down, despite the circumstances .

They mention Gwen's dad again...is George Stacy ever going to show up? I guess he's redundant with Yuri, not that she's shown up this season either .

Well, on the plus side it looks like the serum restored Norman's arm .

I honestly thought the Osborn stuff would carry into the series finale, but just like the Symbiote Invasion they resolved it in two episodes. I was expecting this show would have one long season-spanning arc but the only thing really connecting everything is Symbiote's (and that was only tangential in this instance). I hope the finale doesn't feel too abrupt .

 

[EndBringer99]

No-one ever calls Miles "Spy-D", just Miles, and it's ridiculous whole city doesn't know by now.

 

[Comicman2014]

At first I thought Anya and Maria were voiced by the same woman. They sound so identical. If you close your eyes, it sounds like Anya is having a conversation with herself.

Miles's dad being Swarm raises so many questions. Why the dad? Why not have Miles's uncle Aaron Davis as Swarm? After watching the 'Into the Spiderverse' movie, it's seems odd to me that his dad is a costume villain in this show.

I'm surprised angry parents are not removing their kids from Horizon High. There is always trouble in that school.

For a victim, Connors sure was acting like a saturday morning cartoon villain. The guy seemed like he was enjoying it.

 

[Korra_Fan]

With the exception of the questionable choice to make Swarm be Miles' dad (that was dumb), this was awesome and felt like it was closing the book on a lot of long-standing plot and character stuff. Just a few more loose ends (MJ, Connors / the Lizard, the aforementioned Swarm, and Venom's last stand likely caused by Norman recreating the Venom symbiote and juicing it up with Jackal serum) to be wrapped up in the big finale next month. I'm gonna miss this show, but it had a good run.

 

[Frontier]

No-one ever calls Miles "Spy-D", just Miles, and it's ridiculous whole city doesn't know by now.

This is the same city where Gwen Stacy can wear the exact same costume she wore during Spider-Island, just with a mask, and seemingly no one realizes it's still her under there .

At first I thought Anya and Maria were voiced by the same woman. They sound so identical. If you close your eyes, it sounds like Anya is having a conversation with herself.

Same here .

Miles's dad being Swarm raises so many questions. Why the dad? Why not have Miles's uncle Aaron Davis as Swarm? After watching the 'Into the Spiderverse' movie, it's seems odd to me that his dad is a costume villain in this show.

Probably because they didn't want to introduce a last-minute character relevant to Miles (I guess they kind of did it with Anya, but it was a special case). Maybe they thought they were piggbacking off how Jefferson isn't the biggest Superhero fan in the comics .

I'm surprised angry parents are not removing their kids from Horizon High. There is always trouble in that school.

To be honest, I don't expect that to get better with Max in charge again .

For a victim, Connors sure was acting like a saturday morning cartoon villain. The guy seemed like he was enjoying it.

Kind of why it was hard for me to feel bad for him .

With the exception of the questionable choice to make Swarm be Miles' dad (that was dumb), this was awesome and felt like it was closing the book on a lot of long-standing plot and character stuff. Just a few more loose ends (MJ, Connors / the Lizard, the aforementioned Swarm, and Venom's last stand likely caused by Norman recreating the Venom symbiote and juicing it up with Jackal serum) to be wrapped up in the big finale next month. I'm gonna miss this show, but it had a good run.

I would hope they'd resolve everything what with this seemingly being the final season and all .

 

[M.O.D.O.K.]

This episode could've been great if the show didn't feel so restricted in its new format and didn't have to crowbar the symbiotes in most stories where they clearly aren't interested in doing symbiote stories. Also, if it actually developed Peter's circle of friends.

Really, there was very little that having a symbiote did for Norman. I think he could've gotten healing, enhanced strength, and a bigger mutation later with Jackal's chemicals alone. Dark Goblin is pretty much a palette swap of Red Goblin, and while it was nice seeing him in a glider and throwing bombs, it felt like a forced connection to the ongoing symbiote plot it's been ignoring anyway. I guess I liked him becoming more unhinged and Josh Keaton got to do a laugh, even if only once.

The personal conflicts with the villain team gave me mixed results. Harry and Gwen's stories felt the strongest because they were actually explored and developed. Harry straight-up rejecting Norman's offer was satisfying and Jackal was creepy enough. Anya's story completely wasted a potential Tarantula, but I also think EVERYONE having evil older relatives was far-fetched, so I guess it wasn't a bad Chameleon inclusion. Miles's conflict against his dad/Swarm was the weirdest, though. Swarm's motivation was flimsy, it relied mostly on exposition, it used a character that was barely in the show, and it disappeared the moment it was brought up. Sadly enough, this is the most development Miles has gotten. I think this wouldn't have been a problem if the show actually focused on these characters instead of leaving that until the last minute. Otto felt more fleshed out and he's not even alive.

I'm glad they actually acknowledged Connors' previous bout as the Lizard. I don't know how to feel about him (and Venom and the sisters) being the final adversaries of the season. Norman had no reason to burn him when he did. Also, Connors felt way too villainous for the reveal that he was being forced by Norman to do all this. He even did an evil laugh in one episode and became a tyrannical principal at Horizon. Seriously, that felt so unnecessary.

Also, is it just me or does the final fight have some of the best animation in the series? Everything felt smooth, it had some interesting choreography and colors, and there's also consistent shading! Too bad it's on the tail end of the show. I also liked little quirks like debunking that fingerprint/password cliche and Jackal's use of specific sharks

 

[Frontier]

This episode could've been great if the show didn't feel so restricted in its new format and didn't have to crowbar the symbiotes in most stories where they clearly aren't interested in doing symbiote stories. Also, if it actually developed Peter's circle of friends.

But then you get the complaint that the subtitle for the season is barely relevant to the show...of course, I guess you get that either way considering how little of the actual Venom there has been in "Maximum Venom" .

Really, there was very little that having a symbiote did for Norman. I think he could've gotten healing, enhanced strength, and a bigger mutation later with Jackal's chemicals alone. Dark Goblin is pretty much a palette swap of Red Goblin, and while it was nice seeing him in a glider and throwing bombs, it felt like a forced connection to the ongoing symbiote plot it's been ignoring anyway. I guess I liked him becoming more unhinged and Josh Keaton got to do a laugh, even if only once.

Maybe they didn't want him to feel like a redux of Ultimate Goblin, so they added in a Symbiote. Although how did he come up with that physical sword? That didn't look like it was made from the Symbiote .

Still better than the Goblin King...

The personal conflicts with the villain team gave me mixed results. Harry and Gwen's stories felt the strongest because they were actually explored and developed. Harry straight-up rejecting Norman's offer was satisfying and Jackal was creepy enough. Anya's story completely wasted a potential Tarantula, but I also think EVERYONE having evil older relatives was far-fetched, so I guess it wasn't a bad Chameleon inclusion. Miles's conflict against his dad/Swarm was the weirdest, though. Swarm's motivation was flimsy, it relied mostly on exposition, it used a character that was barely in the show, and it disappeared the moment it was brought up. Sadly enough, this is the most development Miles has gotten. I think this wouldn't have been a problem if the show actually focused on these characters instead of leaving that until the last minute. Otto felt more fleshed out and he's not even alive.

My only issue with Harry and Gwen is that Harry already went through this in the season 1 finale and Gwen's issue with her uncle was basically nonexistent up to this point since Spider-Island ended .

You'd think they could have mentioned Anya came from a blended family with a big sister or establish that Jefferson had a problem with Superheroes (and especially the Miles Spider-Man) after the Spider-Slayer attack earlier, but I guess that wasn't a priority. I mean, they've mentioned Gwen's dad a few times but we're probably never going to see him .

Also, is it just me or does the final fight have some of the best animation in the series? Everything felt smooth, it had some interesting choreography and colors, and there's also consistent shading! Too bad it's on the tail end of the show. I also liked little quirks like debunking that fingerprint/password cliche and Jackal's use of specific sharks

The show has had random bouts of stronger animation and fight choreography. Like SpOck vs Cloak and Dagger in season 2 was much better animated and choreographed compared to some of the other fights or scenes that season .

I liked the flip of the finerprint password cliche but I was more distracted by Gwen having gloves that she ended up not even needing to take off .

 

[Pattern_Maker]

Also, is it just me or does the final fight have some of the best animation in the series? Everything felt smooth, it had some interesting choreography and colors, and there's also consistent shading!

In this case, I think it's a benefit of Generations being one of the last few episodes, and a fight with Norman Osborn deserves quality animation.

Really, there was very little that having a symbiote did for Norman. I think he could've gotten healing, enhanced strength, and a bigger mutation later with Jackal's chemicals alone.

He did gain all of those abilities... Harry literally said that Norman has gotten stronger and faster after injecting himself with Jackal's formulas. Harry even blew his body up with pumpkin bombs and Dark Goblin reformed himself just like Venom.

Although how did he come up with that physical sword? That didn't look like it was made from the Symbiote .

It was, though Carnage is usually the symbiote to form weapons like that. Applying comic book logic, Norman's Dark Goblin symbiote should have been to weak to have done that since it was just created.

 

[M.O.D.O.K.]

But then you get the complaint that the subtitle for the season is barely relevant to the show...of course, I guess you get that either way considering how little of the actual Venom there has been in "Maximum Venom" .

I guess maybe they weren't as interested in telling a story about Venom and symbiotes as much as Marvel/Disney was and they did as little of it as they could? I'd honestly wouldn't care about living up to the title if it meant stronger stories.

He did gain all of those abilities... Harry literally said that Norman has gotten stronger and faster after injecting himself with Jackal's formulas. Harry even blew his body up with pumpkin bombs and Dark Goblin reformed himself just like Venom.

That's my point, though. Aside from that moment you mentioned, the symbiote really wasn't that relevant to the fight or the character. He could've even turned into a chimera monster by OD'ing on the Jackal chemicals.

 

[Frontier]

I guess maybe they weren't as interested in telling a story about Venom and symbiotes as much as Marvel/Disney was and they did as little of it as they could? I'd honestly wouldn't care about living up to the title if it meant stronger stories.

I definitely think the use of Venom and Symbiotes this season was primarily based around marketing, especially when it's been utilized more for merchandise and promotional material compared to the actual show .

That's my point, though. Aside from that moment you mentioned, the symbiote really wasn't that relevant to the fight or the character. He could've even turned into a chimera monster by OD'ing on the Jackal chemicals.

He was still susceptible to sound like normal Venom, although they really didn't use that as much as I expected them to .

 

[Comicman2014]

I can understand Miles's dad wanting to eliminate the teen superheroes because he sees them as a threat to his son, but did he need to create a fight-to-the-death wrestling show to do it? Was that part Swarm's idea? Why...just why? It seems so out of character for Jackal, Swarm, and Norman to come up with something that wacky and bizarre, even for this show.

 

[M.O.D.O.K.]

The arena was a way for them to raise money for their operations. Though Swarm as the host is a weird choice.

 

[RoyalRubble]

Pretty good episode. As expected Norman Osborn was Connors' boss and was the mastermind behind most of the non-symbiote related events this season. His return was handled well enough and I liked the idea of him assembling a team whose members have some sort of connection to the spider-heroes. Osborn becoming the Dark Goblin was fine I suppose, but I didn't particularly care for the addition of the Venom symbiote in his transformation. But I guess it couldn't be helped given the overall theme of the season. His design as the Dark Goblin looked pretty good and only got creepier as he evolved during the fight.

Harry's return was cool and I liked how his reunion with Norman played out. This was probably the most interesting part of the episode, and it is kind of a staple in most Spider-Man projects where these two appear. I also liked Gwen and Jackal's reunion, which was similarly given a proper amount of screen-time and received a decent enough conclusion. I'll admit, I was probably more interested in seeing Jackal here than Goblin given how over-exposed he is, but I think the show managed to handle them both pretty well.

As for the rest of the villain team... Maria Corazon was a pretty surprising addition. I kind of liked how they merged or re-invented characters from the comics and gave them a connection to Anya, though something like this should have been given a bit more build-up. But given this wasn't even the real Maria, I guess it was harmless enough, and like I said, I thought this was a pretty cool idea to begin with.

On the other hand, Swarm's connection to Miles was a bit too weird. Similarly it probably needed a bit more build-up, and in a way I can kind of see what they were going for. But as others have mentioned it feels strange they didn't use his uncle Aaron for this role. I guess Aaron being Swarm would have also felt odd, but I think they could have used his Prowler persona, not only it would have been more accurate to the comics but a nice nod to having Hobie Brown in the role last season (similar to how they had Amadeus Cho as the Hulk without any explanation a couple of episodes ago).

I also liked the ending, Max Modell is apparently cleared of his charges, Peter realizes he has his friends, etc. I have no idea how things are going to play out next time, but this really felt like a finale of sorts. It wasn't perfect, but I think this was the strongest and most entertaining story this season.

 

[M.O.D.O.K.]

But as others have mentioned it feels strange they didn't use his uncle Aaron for this role. I guess Aaron being Swarm would have also felt odd, but I think they could have used his Prowler persona, not only it would have been more accurate to the comics but a nice nod to having Hobie Brown in the role last season (similar to how they had Amadeus Cho as the Hulk without any explanation a couple of episodes ago).

I guess that's why they avoided it, especially since the third special showed Prowler is still an active hero. I think that's also why they made Raymond the Jackal instead of his brother Miles.