"Lucifer" Season Three Talkback (Spoilers)

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The Penguin

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#1

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
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#2
Lucifer "They're Back, Aren't They?"

I'm annoyed they are dragging things out with Chloe learning the secret, and I think the ship drama is a bit ridiculous at this point.

I love that Tom Welling's name appeared in the credits as he stepped down the stairs. That made his appearance a surprise. What do I think of Pierce?

I think he's a jerk. I believe that Dan had his cold shoulder coming, but his behavior towards Lucifer and Chloe upon meeting them was outright grotesque. And he brags about the size of his Johnson to strangers? What a creep! Just the fact that Ella likes him makes me think a LOT less of Ella.

Speaking of which, is this the most annoying she has ever been in any episode ever? Because I never remembered the character being this obnoxious in season 2.

Dan is right back to being a jerk to Lucifer. Between him and Chloe, Lucifer continues to be blamed for things that are not his fault.

I am super disappointed the desert wasn't Heaven or Hell, and was actually a place on Earth. In California even! The wings growing back plot is interesting, and the loss of the Devil face hints to me that Lucifer is no longer currently the Devil. It's not like the wings will make him unable to offer proof of his story to Chloe anyways though.

Love that Amendiel isn't mad at Lucifer for cutting off the wings, but more mad at himself by realizing Lucifer would not confide something this huge with him because Amendiel's feelings about this precise topic were so delicate. Were I Amendiel, I would have been mad anyways, but I like that he recognizes that he should actually be there for Lucifer in times like these.

No Maze this week, which strikes me as a mistake after what happened with her in the finale. Linda seems to be doing better though, and still seems to see nothing wrong with prostitution. At least she's the John this time.

I predict the Sinnerman is Pierce. Just because this is not the kind of show willing to build up a bunch of plausible red herrings. Tom Welling IS the stunt casting of the season, and the newest cast member. That means the show is going to make him the Big Bad. I wish the show didn't always telegraph stuff like that this far ahead of time, but it probably would have been a better idea to wait to seed the concept of the Sinnerman until we actually had a few plausible suspects.

Not loving the new season so far, but it's hardly a wash. I'm still on-board. ***.
 

The Penguin

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#3
New Lucifer right now!

"The One With the Baby Carrot"
Monday, October 9, 2016 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on FOX
Lucifer and Chloe try to deal with their uneasy relationship; the true danger Sinnerman poses is revealed by Detective Pierce's past.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
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#4
Lucifer “The One With The Baby Carrot”

Worst episode title ever.

I could not follow that case of the week at ALL. I could not follow who killed who, who stole whose jokes, and why. Too many variables, and the resolution did not answer them for me at all. I’m not saying I like my TV stupider. But clearer is always nice.

I’m starting to ship Linda and Amenadiel. If Maze was a non-factor, I’d be Team Lamenadiel all the way. Lucifer being Amenadiel’s test makes sense. He’s pretty much every faithful person’s test. It’s good the show was obvious with that at least.

This is the second week in a row I found Ella completely obnoxious. She is literally the worst judge of character on the entire series. The fact that she is portrayed as a woman of faith bugs the crap out of me. It might not if the premise was entirely different. But a faithful person on this show is automatically correct and insightful. And that should not be a turd like Ella. Ever.

I didn’t care for this week either. **1/2.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
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2,747 7
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#6
The more they drag out the relationship between Lucifer and Chloe and the formulaic "case-of-the-week" nonsense, it's going to brutally kill the show.

Why? Even the biggest fans of the show are absolutely sick of it.

More supernatural things will honestly save it.
I agree and disagree at the same time. While it is true the shipping stuff is the worst part of the show, the reason it is so bad is BECAUSE it's progressing at ALL. I don't need to see the Prince of Darkness making doe eyes at a failed B-actress. It's beneath the concept.

Instead of hooking them up and getting it over with, my solution would be just to drop the romantic aspect entirely. It's not the fact that they are dragging their feet which is ruining the show. It's the fact that the show will be ruined if they DON'T drag their feet (see Cheers and Moonlighting). Cheers actually rebounded once they stopped making Sam Malone live and die by the ship. The show should do that with Lucifer too.

The reason the Chloe and Lucifer ship is so ill-advised in my mind is because they are both totally wrong for each other. But that was David and Maddie and Sam and Diane's entire problem too.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
113
43
Framingham, MA
#7
Lucifer "Mr. And Mrs. Mazikeen Smith"

Everyone says that the conman isn't actually a hunk, and is entirely charming on his own. I love that they cast a guy where that was actually true.

Leslie Ann-Brandt seems to have badass new scar on her eyebrow. It's totally hot.

Trixie is excited there is blood on her alien doll. Trixie is messed up.

Are you supposed to be massaging my boob? Do you want me to stop? Well... Why do I have a feeling that scene would be better on Premium Cable?

Love Norm the friendly Canadian hotelier. I kind of think what Maze did to him was less funny, and more of a legit violation. It's not like he didn't object more than once. A guy did that to a woman, we'd consider it sexual assault. Maze's hands were simply not welcome here.

Casting notes: Tom Welling was not credited, but Tricia Helfer was credited as a series regular, even though she did not appear. I don't know what's up with that.

I liked more than I didn't. ***1/2.
 
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Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
113
43
Framingham, MA
#8
Lucifer "What Would Lucifer Do?"

I disliked most of that, but I mostly liked the ending.

Let's get the stuff I didn't like out of the way. I didn't like the idea that Pierce treats Chloe so horribly for a secretly benevolent reason. The job she wanted was for has-beens? Why couldn't he tell her that immediately? What purpose did keeping that information from her serve, other than screwing around the audience? I'd almost understand it if he was the kind of guy who NEVER complimented anybody, but he volunteered the truth later without much prodding. I question why he didn't offer it immediately. It was bad, cliched TV writing. The show at its worse. Television. Ugh.

Also, I hate that Lucifer keeps believing innocent people are lying to him. What use is the persuasion gift if he sucks so badly at telling people's intentions? It's like the worst superpower ever. It's like Emma Swan's Lie Detector in being 100% worthless, except worse, because Emma doesn't actually torture the people she is wrong about. If Lucifer punishes evil, and is unable to correctly identify it, then the Universe is badly designed. .

I am less annoyed at Amenadiel's reactions to learning he was a John, and more annoyed that Dan doesn't think his specific reactions are completely abnormal and ridiculously non-human. A human would NOT still be pushing the "cousin" line, even after all that. I'm starting to think the actual reason Chloe and Dan don't believe in the supernatural is because they are legitimately stupid.

Speaking of stupid, I find it very unlikely that Amenadiel sort of thought at first that God wanted him to be more like Lucifer. Him watching out for his brother was always the correct answer to what the test was, and Amenadiel is a chump for not realizing it from the beginning. Maybe he just wanted an excuse to get laid for once.

Speaking of which, Ella thinks Pierce is into Chloe? Please don't make her right, producers. She is the only person on the show who seems a worse judge of character than Luci himself.

I hate it when Lucifer threatens perps lives, and totally gets away with it, especially since the perp is usually innocent. Pierce had an interesting thought about that: It was smart because if the guy didn't do it, Lucifer probably just scared him straight. It's a 100% WRONG perspective, but it interests me because it is also 100% NOT sinister, which tells me that Pierce might not be a Black Hat. Him telling Chloe she's special, however, tells me he may be.

I hated Lucifer's rant to Amenadiel at the end for two reasons: Amenadiel didn't deserve it for being right. I liked that he STILL refused to leave his brother's side after that, because he knew Luci was deliberately pushing him away, but it's the jerkiest thing Lucifer has done in awhile.

Secondly, we didn't hear the end of the story of the masochist Lucifer tortured in Hell. If this guy was as bad as Lucifer hinted, were I him, and he begged me to show up again, I simply would have ignored him for the rest of eternity as the TRUE punishment. The fact that we didn't learn what Lucifer's response was makes the story very narratively unsatisfying, especially if Lucifer is going to make it a parallel to how he sees Amenadiel.

Lucifer starting a drug operation might have been funny if he hadn't completely gotten away with it. Instead, the show is insulting my intelligence there.

The thing I like best about the ending is that it got back to the moral that Lucifer is not evil. He punishes evil. That is a huge difference and distinction. Because in a Universe with an Afterlife, that makes Lucifer actually GOOD and righteous. He is necessary and a part of God's Grand Design. Why he's starting to believe the "I'm evil" hype now makes little sense to me, wings or no. Because he never has been, and before the wings he already knew that.

I also like that Dan got the Union Rep job at the end. Said everything. I did not mostly like that plot, but the resolution was sort of perfect. What's interesting is that Chloe neither defends Dan, or courteously warns Dan that Pierce has it out for him. I like that she does neither of those things because it hints that deep down, she knows that Pierce is right. Frankly, Dan should have left the show after the end of the first season, and if Pierce is good for nothing, he is at least good for reminding the audience that Detective ******'s career path is a dead end. And that SHOULD be true after season one.

So-so episode. Part of it was too much like every TV show I watch and hate, but part of it reminded me why I like this show specifically. All in all, I'd call the good and bad a bit of a push. ***.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
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113
43
Framingham, MA
#9
Lucifer "Welcome Back, Charlotte Richards"

The first half of the episode was pretty much the show at its absolute worst. Women in underwear for a pudding commercial? I get that the show traffics in eyecandy, but can't it at least make a LICK of sense? Just a little? Is that too much to ask? The exploitation on this show never ends. It's a bit less annoying than when it happens on iZombie, because the female characters on Lucifer aren't ever the ones being exploited, but boy it is a very real level of suck.

And don't get me started on how stupid Dan's unheard of pudding obsession was. That was so badly written and thought out, I think a legitimately terrible show could have done it verbatim without me batting an eye. Then again, David E Kelly won multiple Emmys writing scripts that terrible, so it's not like TV producers ever learn the correct lessons about that sort of thing. You write something exactly that cloying and stupid and unfunny, and Emmy jumps. It's no wonder TV was as bad for as long as it was.

But halfway through, things turned around. I didn't like everything in the second half, (Ella telling Charlotte she now contained a darkness continues to mean Ella is the worst judge of character on the show) but I like the idea of Lucifer tentatively befriending Charlotte because he feels responsible for the disastrous life Mum left for her in her wake. And when the Devil says "Trust me," and you know she can, I am again reminded of why this show is cool. The pudding sluts remind me why it isn't. But an honest and trustworthy Lucifer Morningstar is pretty much the show's best hook.

I have a feeling that Charlotte is going to be let in on the secret in a matter of weeks, and will be the new Linda is questioning all of the weirdness, and being a human sounding board and confidant for Lucifer. But unlike Linda, I don't think it's going to be a long, drawn-out process. Because I think Charlotte would be pretty much inclined to believe the crazy truth immediately. Because it's the only thing that explains both the memory loss and Hell. Plus, he's got the wings.

Wonder Woman doll, huh? So the show is not DC Universe canon. We kind of got that previously because it and Constantine do a few things differently already, but if Lucifer gets canceled, Tom Ellis will not be showing up on Arrow in the next season.

Look forward to seeing what Charlotte and Amenadiel think of each other. I hate that modern dramas never seem to have the entire casts in every episode (or even most, or sometimes any), but Amenadeil being absent shows the definite upside to doing that. We have something to look forward to. And if Linda isn't in next week either, we have TWO things. Three if you count Maze.

I like that the end of the episode brought back the morals of loopholes at the end. Swear jars don't really help things. It gets kids to stop swearing. But it doesn't explain why people get upset when kids do. It's because bad words often make people feel bad. Less kids would talk like sailors if they were taught that, instead of the idea that swearing is simply a fun thing to do behind Mom and Dad's back.

First suicide resolution we've ever gotten on the show. Which is weird. That should be happening a lot more often than it does. But I think that about Law And Order too.

First half sucked, second half didn't. ***.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
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43
Framingham, MA
#11
Lucifer “Vegas With Some Radish”

There was nothing very offensive about the episode to me, but thinking more about that, that’s a problem. If my biggest objections to a TV show about a sympathetic Satan are they they are dressing one of the female cast members as a stripper in a particularly demeaning way, the show has stopped pushing the right buttons. It’s gotten into a rut, and doesn’t deal with the big themes that caused such controversy when it first came on the air. Basically, now the show’s idea of naughtiness is simply eye-candy, and thinks the job of being subversive ends there. I have been very aware over the last few weeks that Lucifer is a network TV show. And that’s not something that a good TV series should ever make me feel.

But seeing Linda and Chloe caterwauling in Lucifer’s apartment screams “television” to me, and bad television at that. Did I mention that Linda continues to be the worst therapist ever in breaking into one of her patient’s apartment and drinking their booze? She is such a hot mess.

It’s been ages since I’ve seen Lauren Holly in anything. I don’t think she added anything to this particular episode, but I would still like to see her getting more work. It’s not fair that she doesn’t get cast in as much simply because she’s middle-aged. She’s the kind of actor who would be headlining a CSI or NCIS if she were a man.

There were a couple of interesting things about the episode. It’s again hinted that Candy perhaps knows Lucifer’s real deal, but I couldn’t figure out from the flashbacks when she would have learned it.

I also found it interesting that Lucifer is starting to get the distinctions between bluffing and omissions, and that they are all a class of lying. And since he hates doing that, he’s going to change. I love the idea that the Prince of Darkness is open to personal growth if he can be reasoned into it. That’s something the show used to explore in season 1 before it turned into all T&A, all the time.

Second week without either Charlotte or Amenadiel which is frustrating. If Charlotte had been in the episode at all, and say, perhaps met Maze, I might have been okay with her being gone last week, but it feels like they are drawing out the moments we want to see for no real good reason whatsoever.

This season has been a bust so far. **1/2.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
113
43
Framingham, MA
#12
Lucifer "Off The Record"

I was loving most of this episode. It was amazing. And then bit by bit at the ending, it really started to bother me. The hoops the show had to go through to make it seem like Rhys is the bad guy in this situation, and actually deserves Hell were not credible. Because if that's the moral, I disagree.

Yeah, he's abusive murderer, but before Lucifer drove him insane, he was neither of those things. I was less upset at his full throated apology to Linda at the end being solely so he could win her back, and more that he offered it in the first place. Their marriage crumbling was entirely her fault. She cheated on him while he was in a coma, and never visited him in the hospital. Even worse, all this time, she NEVER told Lucifer she was married. Lucifer is, generally speaking, a goofball, but were I him, I'd be incredibly angry that she never told me that. It's clear Lucifer doesn't really have a problem with committing adultery, but Linda's his friend. The only human on Earth who knows the truth about him. How could she keep something like that from him? Linda is not just the worst therapist ever. She's the worst wife ever and the worst friend ever. I am a little annoyed at how far the show had to push Rhys to actually make it seem like he was the bad guy in that scenario.

Ever see Fatal Attraction? Glenn Close's character is not actually the villain. At least not until she boiled the rabbit. Up until that point, her grievances with being cast aside and used by Michael Douglas' character are legitimate. The writers of Fatal Attraction went overboard to say a woman Michael Douglas used and discarded was the villainess of the movie, and the same thing happened here. I don't buy the boiled rabbit, and I don't buy Rhys hiring the serial killer. And it angers me that the writers think I should.

Linda has always been my least favorite character, probably because the writers know nothing about therapy, and never seem to care enough to even study the subject in the most cursory of manners. And because of that, she merely spouts embarrassing cliches, and doesn't take her profession seriously. And I disliked her for that. But now I detest her. And what bothers me is that it's revealed that I should have the entire time.

Third week in a row with no Charlotte or Amenadiel. This show is working my last nerve.

For 45 minutes that was amazing television. And then it turned into a rationalization for adultery and neglect in the last 15. All things considered, this week was a push. **1/2.
 
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Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
113
43
Framingham, MA
#13
Lucifer "Chloe Does Lucifer"

This show has completely lost me this season. This season has been SO underwhelming, that I'm starting to second guess why I ever liked it. Every episode in this season shows all of the show's faults, that have obviously been present the entire time, except they are so overboard, that I can no longer shut off my brain and tolerate them.

I personally think a show that has the Devil as the main character should NOT be making the Devil this stupid and incompetent. Lucifer is epically bad at his job, cannot judge people at ALL, (which is ironic given his former profession), and his "What do you truly want?" gimmick means that he should not be as wrong about people as he is. Because he has that gift, he should be an amazing detective. And he always should have been. And I let it slide, because I figured it was culture shock, or whatever, and that he'd get better at it as he went along. But he is much worse at this in season 3 than he was in season 1. It the exact same flaw in the show, but because it's year 3, I actually notice it. And now I don't cut Year 1 the same slack.

Same goes for what a terrible person Linda is. If I were Linda, I WOULD be making the ex-husband's death entirely about myself. But she doesn't even realize that she SHOULD be doing that. Because he died because she was such a bad wife and friend. She was such a cheater and a liar, he went overboard in trying to protect her, including killing an innocent person because she wasn't honest with him. That dead innocent person is equally on her mortal soul, in my mind. And now he's damned to Hell for good measure. And Linda, even now, doesn't seem understand exactly how badly she screwed this guy, and frankly Lucifer too. Most people would be overjoyed at the idea that an afterlife is definitely real. It's the light at the end of the tunnel of the Hell that is Earth. But Linda isn't happy because she's knows where she's headed. And she deserves it. Far more than Charlotte ever could.

Another problem magnified this season is Ella's so-called ethics and virtues. Part of the joke last year is that she's devout while seeming totally normal. Now she's skulking around the lab to avoid the real Charlotte, which tells me the series is going to make her scarily and unrealistically correct about Charlotte's darkness, or it's another example that she is the only character on the show worse at judging people than Lucifer. The fact that it could be either thing shows this show is completely inconsistently written.

Fourth Problem: The show is obviously Hollywood fake. I don't know if it films in Vancouver or not, but I will say that even though they cast a couple of realistic looking people in the first season, now it's all supermodels all the time. I could not see any discernible "hotness" difference between Kim and Mac when the photos are held up side to side. Lucifer: The Series is SO opposed to making the viewer see "unpleasant" things, they refuse to cast a plain looking woman for still photograph of a plain person. I will admit, this mindset is part of TV and film's entire history. But Lucifer is one of those shows where the characters are even too hot for L.A., which is like crazy. And there is nothing realistic about the series because of that.

And does every single killer have to have murdered a person they stole an app or a business idea from? It's not like there aren't a ton of reasons real people kill one another, and a police "mystery" making that the usual solution means the show is far more predictable than even the most average of police procedurals, which tend to have varying motivations from week to week. It's House, if is actually WAS lupus every episode.

Was there anything I liked? I like that when Amenadiel tells Linda to lie down in the sand, that she does it without further objection. Normally, a person would not do that for any reason (sand is a pain to get out of nice clothes). But if that advice comes from a former angel, you're more than likely to oblige. I like that. But that's the only thing I liked.

I plan to rewatch the first couple of seasons on DVD soon, but just based upon what I've discovered about the series and its cliches this season, I will probably not enjoy it as much the second time around. *.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
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Framingham, MA
#15
Lucifer "The Sinnerman"

Sinnerman speculation follows.

What we know:

He can be influenced by Lucifer, suggesting he is both human and mortal.

He is so desperate to make sure Lucifer doesn't know his desire, he blinded himself, instead of merely trying to escape. This suggests two things to me.

1. Lucifer CAN defeat him, and is the key to doing so.

2. The Sinnerman did not attempt to escape because the police station is precisely where he actually wants to be. Look for big forthcoming Andre Linoge type shenanigans in the coming weeks. Something tells me they are going to regret they caught, rather than killed him.

We also know The Sinnerman is not perfect, and errs on the side of making human mistakes. He is not Xanatos, and prepared for every contingency. Just based on what I just saw, I'm thinking he fully intended to keep Lucifer trapped in that building forever before Maze frakked it up. Had she not, he would not have needed to blind himself at all. That is an actual, quantifiable mistake.

He also knows the truth about Lucifer. No clue how or why that is, or how someone seemingly mortal could have stolen his devil face and given him back his wings. I think the Sinnerman is probably human. That doesn't mean he doesn't traffic is various magics. Lucifer Morningstar IS DC Comics canon, and magic is real in the DC Universe. This incarnation of Lucifer is entirely separate from the rest of the DC shows, but that doesn't mean that magic is never going to come up. I think it must need to at some point out of storytelling necessity. You cannot give Lucifer very many credible villain threats without it.

Pierce is not off of my suspect list. He could actually working with the Sinnerman, and I can't picture why they would have bothered hiring somebody like Tom Welling for that specific role unless they were trying to "surprise" the audience by making Smallville's Clark Kent sinister. Which also leads me to take his and Chloe's ship with a huge grain of salt. I also don't necessarily take the story about the dead brother at face value. Sinnerman's "Do what you've got to do" advice is also not something only state to someone definitively working against him.

P.S. Welling has put on a LOT of weight. It's more muscle than fat which is annoying. Where were those guns when he was Superman?

Speaking of taking ships with a huge grain of salt, I am amazed Maze's very real concerns about Amenadiel never occurred to Linda herself. Maze is right about something: She is her friend and it's like she totally forgot or didn't care about it because she was so enraptured of angels. It again reminds me why I believe Linda is the absolute worst character on the show. She only cares about herself. Lucifer is far less self-involved than she is which amazes me. The fact that she's a therapist borders on the obscene.

Very cool episode. I would go so far and say it's the first one of the season I actually liked. ****.
 

Otaku-sempai

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2010
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#16
Every so often the subject gets brought up of other DC/Vertigo characters showing up on Lucifer. As much fun as it might be to see one of the Endless cameo, the one character who I would like to see is John Constantine. If circumstances would not allow Matt Ryan to assume the role then I wouldn't mind seeing someone else in John's trench coat--say James Marsters.

Another possible guest-role might be that of Jason Blood (a.k.a. the demon Etrigan), though he might be a bit too flashy for this show.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
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43
Framingham, MA
#17
Lucifer "The Sin Bin"

That was tight.

First things first, I knew Pierce was working with the Sinnerman. I didn't guess he was the boss (although I didn't rule it out) but he was definitely the second person involved. And of course, I was right. And I knew I would be.

But do you know what I love? That he turns out to be the Biblical Cain. But that revelation was apparently not quite awesome enough for the producers. So he sits down and asks Lucifer for a drink, which hints he may not even be evil (directing the Sinnerman's serial-killings perhaps poking at that idea a bit). It was the perfect way to end the episode.

It also makes sense he's the boss, because I figured the Sinnerman was human, and him giving wings and taking away faces seems a long shot for a mortal. Then again, so does standing up against demon torture.

"Stop talking, Ella!" That works? Suddenly I hate every other character for not thinking of that earlier.

Lucifer drawing eyes on the bandages was quite endearing. But it didn't make Sinnerman look less creepy.

The Sinnerman's desire to be killed by Lucifer means his entire mission for the season makes no sense. Unless there are specific reasons he is not allowed to tell Lucifer he wants him to kill him. But he does anyways, and still asks, so that doesn't fit either. If he REALLY wanted Lucifer to kill him, he would have sought him out and asked nicely, probably in return for a favor. There has to be a crazy rule involved. The Sinnerman's actions make no sense if he does NOT want Lucifer to read his desire. Because if Lucifer knew it, he'd know he'd be the only person who could help him, and might actually have worked up enough strength to do it, as it wouldn't be murder in that scenario.

Here's a troubling question: What if Lucifer has been wrong at the end? It was a correct theory, but it was only a theory, and there was also zero evidence for it, and he basically risked a potentially innocent man's life on a hunch. What would have happened if he had been wrong? I feel less good about the idea that Lucifer does not have it in him to kill a human, if he didn't inflict mortal damage on a person because he gambled they were NOT human. That doesn't sit right with me.

Pierce claiming the Sinnerman killed his brother is another thing that makes no sense. Cain is the one who killed his own brother. Is the Sinnerman even dead? Or is he an Immortal and part of the reason he wanted Lucifer to kill him was because he was the only one who could? Will he be back in January? I ask because it DID take a few hours for Pierce to get his second wind. Maybe one of the slabs in the morgue will be extra animated and freaked out tonight.

I am a little disturbed that Trixie correct guessed that Charlotte is having sex with her father. That is not something a kid that age should be able to guess, much less be correct about, which is another thing to state Trixie actually has a sucky homelife, and her parents bring the misery from their jobs home with them. It wasn't cute. It was sad.

Am I the only one who is now extra pissed at the idea that Ella so strongly distrusts a mere nuisance like Charlotte, and yet is making moon-eyes at the Biblical Cain? They better not make her right about Charlotte. A supposedly religious person THAT off about that specific thing means the producers should NEVER be giving her any credit when it comes to human insight.

The one thing I hate was how Chloe treated Lucifer at the end. But it's classic Chloe, and the precise reason I don't actually ship her and Lucifer. The idea of this honest and pretense-free guy falling in love with such a close-minded and petty woman tells me the reason they shouldn't hook up isn't because they are from two different worlds. It's because they are not the right fit for each other. And I firmly believe that, and believed the same about Sam and Diane from Cheers and David and Maddie from Moonlighting. And it's weird that after moments like that that the show WANTS me to see her and Lucifer get together. I don't. I truly think she's beneath him at this point. #TeamCandyMorningstar.

Great episode otherwise though. *****.
 

Otaku-sempai

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2010
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#18
Here's a troubling question: What if Lucifer has been wrong at the end? It was a correct theory, but it was only a theory, and there was also zero evidence for it, and he basically risked a potentially innocent man's life on a hunch. What would have happened if he had been wrong? I feel less good about the idea that Lucifer does not have it in him to kill a human, if he didn't inflict mortal damage on a person because he gambled they were NOT human. That doesn't sit right with me.
Cursed with immortality or not, isn't Cain still human? I do find it surprising that Lucifer would not be more familiar with other immortal or extremely long-lived Judaeo-Christian personages.

I think we need to separate the Sinnerman's true desire from the goal given him by Cain. Cain's goals might be what he was trying to protect by blinding himself, not his own. Or perhaps Sinnerman was just more afraid of his boss than of the Devil.

Pierce claiming the Sinnerman killed his brother is another thing that makes no sense. Cain is the one who killed his own brother. Is the Sinnerman even dead? Or is he an Immortal and part of the reason he wanted Lucifer to kill him was because he was the only one who could? Will he be back in January? I ask because it DID take a few hours for Pierce to get his second wind. Maybe one of the slabs in the morgue will be extra animated and freaked out tonight.
Well, it's obvious that Pierce/Cain was lying about his brother, though the Sinnerman might have killed the sibling of the real Pierce (if such a person existed). I actually also wonder if Sinnerman is truly dead. Maybe Cain has partnered with his 'aunt' Lilith and the Sinnerman might arise as the undead.
 

Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
113
43
Framingham, MA
#19
Lucifer "City Of Angels?"

Out of all of the shows I review, Lucifer is probably my current favorite to review. Because it ALWAYS gives me great stuff to bash. It is practically begging for my nitpicking, and I am always eager to oblige. The closest show I watch to something that is this easy to bash is Gotham, and needless to say that is a totally different, lesser experience, because Gotham is usually a terrible show written by terrible people, so I'm not just bashing it. I'm suffering through what they are doing to Batman. The trick with Lucifer is that most weeks, it's ALMOST a good show. So every nag I have against it is something I consider constructive. Unlike Gotham, my bashing does not come from a place of malice. Which makes it far more fun.

Let's start off with everything the show did wrong this week. And it did a ton wrong. And yet it did enough decent things that it was ALMOST a good show. Which is pretty much this show's biggest problem. It's the genre also-ran that cannot quite deliver on the premise.

First off, I think the premise of the actual episode was flawed from the ground up. For two major reasons. Firstly, after the Cain reveal last episode, I didn't feel like farting around with a flashback episode. I wanted to get right back to that. And the show probably even thinks it's clever by making the audience crazy by having to wait an additional week (or in this case an additional four) but that method of storytelling does not impress me at all. I am basically the audience member being screwed around, and as I do not have a detachment to what I watch on television, being played like this is not just a fun Andy Kaufman prank I am objectively watching happen to somebody else. And JUST like Conway Twitty on Family Guy, the precise reason it isn't funny is because I understand exactly why they are doing it. Kaufman's pranks were never supposed to be funny to his victims. They were funny to outside observers. And Conway Twitty, and crazy making storytelling like this is the writers telling me they think I am just as big a rube as the people Kaufman routinely infuriated. And I'm not. Because I actually get the joke. I understand what they are doing, and why they are doing it. Immediately. Which means the prank sucks, and that there is no reason on God's green Earth that I should ever appreciate it.

The second reason this episode was a bad idea is that if even if it hadn't occurred in the middle of an epic cliffhanger, it would still ill-advised. Personally? I think the show worked better when the viewer didn't actually know the exact details of how Lucifer came to L.A. and decided to stick around. My imagination hadn't fully settled on what I think happened, but I think my imagination expected the story to be better than that. And since it's been three years, it literally cannot be better than what we imagined, so the episode is fighting a losing battle. Not every story is better for plainly laying things out. And with a show with such an ambiguous premise involving supernatural deities, that is more true here than on most shows. I think Lucifer should be a show that asks the big questions. But they should never answer them. Now this episode didn't quite go THAT far. But it also didn't need to (or should have gone) as far as it did.

Next complaint: I complain about the eye-candy and the producers treating me like an idiot horndog who can't keep his tongue in his mouth all the time, but the truth is, I'm still watching the show. If the show is exploitative and grossly antifeminist, I am partly to blame for already knowing that, and still not having switched the channel. Stipulated. But this week stuck in my craw even worse than usual with the myth of the happy, well-adjusted porn star who loves her life, is rich and content, and would rather be doing nothing else. Do the male writers of this show not understand that most porn actresses hate their jobs, are treated like chattel, and are often part of sex trafficking to boot? A lot of the enjoyable "consensual" sex on camera is not actually consensual. And it's shows like this that give audiences a bad impression about that industry. And if the show wasn't routinely a jiggle-fest, I might not complain about the "not safe for TV" moral. But the writers are genuine creeper horndogs, and that makes this parricular message even worse than if they were simply clueless and misinformed.

Interesting for the show to voice the idea that there aren't any porn stars in Hell. Just based on what I have heard about that industry, that should be true. What amazes me is that Amenadiel doesn't know that.

Amenadiel was working my last nerve this episode. If I wanted to see him being such a humorless scold, I could just pop in the reruns. But him telling Lucifer he was pure evil, just infuriated me for every reason I can think of. First off, Lucifer is not and never has been evil. At least on this show. He punishes evil. He's basically an underworld cop. I'm not saying all or most cops are headed to Heaven, but I certainly am not going to say they are all evil and headed to Hell either. That's just common sense. How does his own brother not know this? The second reason is even if that was somehow true, or even if it wasn't, and Amenadiel was simply dumb enough to believe that nonsense, Lucifer is his freaking brother. He should not be saying that, or repeatedly telling him that he's a better person than he is. Because just based on this episode only (forget the rest of the series for the moment) Lucifer is a FAR better person than Amenadiel. He actually cares about the humans he encounters, and is fascinated by them, while Amenadiel treats them like bugs and as if they are beneath his contempt, and are a means to an end. Now if God the All-father thinks Amenadiel's behavior in this episode is righteous, and Lucifer's is not, then Lucifer is right that his father isn't worth a damn. And I kind of wish Lucifer were a more self-aware or insightful person than he actually is. Because he could have simply destroyed Amenadiel through the power of argument, instead of getting into a pointless fight to prove a point that the fight doesn't actually prove. I'd almost forgive Lucifer for not being smart enough to do this at this early stage of his career in L.A., if he still wasn't being written this clueless in season three. I am less willing to put up with the idea that the Devil is not too bright since he has been completely adverse to personal growth about the subject in the meantime.

I knew it was Chris Mulkey. It's ALWAYS that domino-sucking dirtbag Hank Jennings. Always.

I love the idea that Lucifer forces Amenadiel to say the word "deal", because it hints that certain words have specific powers with celestial beings, which is something that fascinates me about the entire premise, and is the reason I watch the show. It's certainly not to watch Chloe and Lucifer making mopey doe-eyes at each other.

But Amenadiel did not see Lucifer using that deal to cash the particular chip he did coming? It strikes me that celestial deities are all a super dumb bunch of folk. It's interesting that both Linda and Ella gravitate towards them, as they are the only characters on the show dumber than Lucifer and Amenadiel.

Good to see the return of the "Devil took a vacation" title card. If it were up to me, they never would have stopped using it, and it would still be at the beginning of every episode.

I love the idea that music is used in Hell as a torture. And it should be. There should definitely be a playlist for that.

Man, I loved watching this episode to see what was wrong with it. As a bonus, I didn't even hate watching it! What a great deal! **1/2.
 
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Fone Bone

Matt Zimmer
Jan 19, 2004
24,347
Ratings
2,747 7
113
43
Framingham, MA
#20
Lucifer "All About Her"

I think Lucifer's theory at the end that God gave him the wings to stop Cain's suicide plot is absolutely flawed, and probably 100% wrong. Or at least it should be. If the writers actually stick to this idea, I'll throw up my hands in disgust. Because even if God gave Lucifer the wings to stop Pierce, that doesn't explain why they keep growing back after he cuts them off. It doesn't explain why the Devil Face is gone. And most importantly, it doesn't explain why God would do that for a plan that would ultimately later turn out to be 100% unsuccessful. If God doesn't already know that Chloe isn't the key to Cain's death, the Afterlife is badly designed.

Speaking of which, the stuff with Amenadiel and the chlamydia was supposed to be funny, and I'm glad it was a false positive, because the idea of an Angel getting that makes the show much smaller than the premise would indicate. If Amendial is getting venereal diseases and passing them on to his girlfriends, this is pretty much Jersey Shore with Celestial Beings. And I have no interest in watching that, regardless if the writers think it is funny.

Linda seems outraged at the suggestion that she might have given it to Amenediel, but honestly, that was my first thought. It makes sense that an Angel is too dumb to use protection, but as Linda is the most irresponsible character on the show, I can see her encounters with Lucifer being entirely bareback.

Here's a plothole: What WAS actually wrong with Amenediel? They never said and hoped we just forgot.

Here's the thing that bugs me about Linda. She says she can't still see Amenadiel because of Maze. And I would have understood if she was reluctant to tell Maze two weeks ago that something had already happened. But it's the fact that as of that scene her and Amenadiel are still together, which is why Linda is a horrible person and a terrible friend. I kind of get why Amenadiel doesn't care about Maze's feelings in that regard, but if Linda really DID feel guilty, the time to end that relationship was upon Maze getting her to promise they wouldn't hook up in the first place.

I think Ella's thing will annoy people, but I found it fascinating. First off, I hate Ella. That should go without saying. But as good as it felt to hear Pierce say what I was thinking a couple of weeks ago, I realize based upon this episode, that it was completely out of line. This is a workplace, and she's his employee. I would certainly like it if Ella were less stupid and less prone to say stupid things. But that doesn't mean I want her boss to yell at her and make her feel inferior.

And the reason I am interested in this plot so much is the lengths Ella went to to try and "fix" things. First she stops talking. Then she is too aggressive. And as hamfisted as the episode is making the moral seem, it's a good moral. This is something women have to navigate every day in the workplace. If they are too quiet, they get passed over for promotions, and if they are too assertive, they are the office b-word. Now, maybe Ella Lopez is not exactly what I would call the poster girl for feminine empowerment. But it's because she isn't which is why the situation must suck so much. I mean she is all about being the office gossip and turning heads with her sexual observations, and she is STILL thought of as an annoying b-word. If Ella didn't try so hard to always be one of the guys, this plot probably wouldn't have resonated as much as it did. It's not just assertive women in the workplace who are occasionally made to feel like non-entities. It's ALL women, and it can pretty much happen at any time, even if you never steeled yourself to it. There will be people who accuse Ella of being a doormat for her behavior earlier in the episode, and the fact that she is trying to change her entire personality because of a man. But that's the tightrope working women have to walk. They put up with a lot more crap than they should, solely because if they always spoke up, they'd never be able to actually get any work done. And I really liked this plot for Ella (for once) especially because I don't particularly like Ella. I still felt bad for her, and thought her situation was unfair. Which is good.

If I were Cain, I would rethink suicide. He has a Mortal Sin on his soul. He IS headed to Hell. What makes him think his eternity in Hell would be any different than an eternity on Earth? In fact, if people's guilt does decide their own personal Hells, this is probably the exact scenario he is headed towards for eternity. And there are no takebacks for that. Here is my thought. Suicide is not the answer. Maybe in a Universe with no Heaven or Hell it would be, but Cain's actual problem is depression. And he has legit reasons to be depressed. But that doesn't mean he has to kill himself. I personally believe that Cain's life on Earth was probably only a Hell because he saw it that way. If he looked at things differently, maybe he'd realize it's okay to be with certain people briefly, and move on when they die. Maybe if Cain understood the message of Immortality better, he would appreciate the time he had with his loved ones, instead of grieving that it didn't last forever. And it kills me that Lucifer is too clueless to actually point this out, and instead agrees to help kill him.

For the record, upon learning what we did this week, the Sinnerman's actions make even less sense. And they were already confusing as Hell. And why did Pierce say he killed his brother in the first place?

Chloe seems surprised at why Lucifer is still trying to help her. Which is one of the things I love about Lucifer and hate about Chloe. He explicitly was helping her at first so she would help him with HIS problem. But once his problem isn't a factor any longer, he still wants to help because he cares about her, and that's part of his commitment. I think the thing about this idea that truly is hurting Lucifer is that Chloe is almost suggesting he is willing to do anything not to have to live up to his side of the bargain. And for an honest person like Lucifer, whose entire identity seems to be tied to making deals with people he refuses to break and screw over, Chloe is insulting him in the most personal way possible. The only thing that would probably hurt worse is if she called him a liar.

Speaking of which, I love Cain pretty much pointing out Lucifer has no leverage over him. And he doesn't. Can't kill him. Next. Can't tell anybody because nobody actually believes Lucifer's the Devil. If this were a less stupid Universe, Cain would be in trouble. As it is, it's the kind of Universe that cannot recognize that the only real honest broker in this city is the one guy who is telling the truth about everything. But no, everybody's going with the "metaphor" idea, or thinks he's a crazy narcissist. Which anybody who has spent time with Lucifer would know is not entirely true. He's self-involved and definitely cares about himself too much. But he cares far more for human beings than somebody in his position and line of work should. And what's interesting about Lucifer is that last week, we learned that he always did, and it wasn't just a case of Chloe cooling the Evil Devil's exterior. And maybe if the Universe actually accepted the fact that Lucifer cares enough about Chloe not to lie to her about something huge like that, everyone would be better off.

Chloe's entire frustration with Lucifer is pretty much only because she refuses to believe him whenever he tells her the truth. And that bugs the crap out of me.

Above average week. That's my verdict. ****.
 
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