Justice League Unlimited "To Another Shore" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Fone Bone]

Why should we?

We can most certainly have raised-bar expectations after what Timm & Co. have shown they're capable of doing.

Your whole post basically says we shouldn't compare this to Cadmus, but every season of JL has gotten better. So why can't we expect this season to be better than the last?

No no no no no. I don't think that's what people are saying at all. All we're saying is that if we are going to compare this to Cadmus it is more logical to compare it the THE BEGINNING of that arc rather than the middle or the end. Of course, the climax of Cadmus was one of the best things the DCAU has ever done. But you can't expect longer stories to be kick-ass from start to finish. A good story always has an intruiging opening and slowly builds. I found the first four episodes of this year enjoyable and they made me want to learn more about what was going on. Compared to the first eight episodes of the Cadmus arc (Initiation through The Greatest Story Never told) the arc has been more consistant and intruiging (outside of Fearful Symmetry which was awesome). Start off slow and then build. It's the rule for good storytelling.

If a story starts off with massive battles and confrontations it gets to be like Yu-Gi-Oh where the important battles don't matter because we see huge battles every week regardless. It guts the dramatic weight of things that are SUPPOSED to be huge.

Besides, the Cadmus arc didn't REALLY start to take off until The Doomsday Sanction.

 

[maxnugget]

What a coincidence that Wonder Woman's ambassador mission is in the EXACT SAME PLACE where the villains need to be!

Actually it's not a coincidence, per se. Note this snippet of dialogue, which explains why the global warming conference was held at the same place as the Viking Ship:

(admist an argument over the legitimacy of global warming)

Diplomat #1:
"My government does not accept those studies."

Diana:
"Then accept the evidence of your eyes. There's a viking ship at the bottom of this mountain, hidden in ice for 1,100 years. If it weren't for global warming we wouldn't even know about it!"

Diplomat #2:
"Yes, and it was clever PR for our hosts to hold the talks here. But it is not proof."

 

[Fone Bone]

Actually, I don't even think the Cadmus arc was a main priority for the writers until "Doomsday Sanction." Early on, the producers hinted at Darkseid showing up, and if I were to venture a guess, I'd say he was intended to be the Big Bad in the 2nd Season Finale. The Cadmus stuff seems to me like it started off as a simple follow-up to "Legacy" and eventually grew into what became a 2-season arc, thus blotting out the New Gods stuff. I could be completely wrong, but I remember during Spring of '04 we got comments like "If Darkseid was coming, we couldn't really say, could we?"

This is precisely one of the reasons I avoid spoilers. Even if they turn out to be false you are still liable to get your hopes dashed.

 

[b.t.]

Actually, I don't even think the Cadmus arc was a main priority for the writers until "Doomsday Sanction." Early on, the producers hinted at Darkseid showing up, and if I were to venture a guess, I'd say he was intended to be the Big Bad in the 2nd Season Finale. The Cadmus stuff seems to me like it started off as a simple follow-up to "Legacy" and eventually grew into what became a 2-season arc, thus blotting out the New Gods stuff. I could be completely wrong, but I remember during Spring of '04 we got comments like "If Darkseid was coming, we couldn't really say, could we?"

dude, you ARE completely wrong, sorry. we were already roughly planning the entire cadmus arc in broad strokes when we wrote "fearful symmetry". not to say it didn't MUTATE somewhat as we went along, but darkseid was never intended to be the big bad of the arc.

 

[Tash]

1. So they shoot the viking into the sun, presumably to incinerate him so that Luthor can't get his hands on him. But didn't Odin make it so that the viking was INVULNERABLE to fire??? Does the sun not count as "fire"? Since he's dead, is his body no longer invulnerable? Seemed like a plot hole to me.

2. Even if the legion had gotten the body, how could Luthor reverse engineer something Odin, a god, gave to someone?? Didn't seem like a very feasible idea by Grodd.

1. If his body is in the middle of the sun, it would be pretty hard to get to.

2. If luthor can create a gun that turns off superpowers, he can probably find a way to copy something like that.

 

[Style]

dude, you ARE completely wrong, sorry. we were already roughly planning the entire cadmus arc in broad strokes when we wrote "fearful symmetry". not to say it didn't MUTATE somewhat as we went along, but darkseid was never intended to be the big bad of the arc.

Interesting. GMahler and I were discussing the arc the other day, (kind of in an "point-what's your point?" style) and even though we disagreed on a lot, we both kind of came to the conclusion that there was a shift in how the story arc went after the initial episodes.

But, I guess we were wrong...

 

[Doomsday]

Interesting. GMahler and I were discussing the arc the other day, (kind of in an "point-what's your point?" style) and even though we disagreed on a lot, we both kind of came to the conclusion that there was a shift in how the story arc went after the initial episodes.

But, I guess we were wrong...

I think it deff change sometime in season 2, probably when they were making the finale. Thinking they were going for a split up with heros with powers and ones without, leaded by Batman as shown by his feelings at the end of the Doomsday episode. An Outcast group. But later they decided to do the Final Fantasy head boss thing with Luthor/Brainiac.

 

[b.t.]

I think it deff change sometime in season 2, probably when they were making the finale. Thinking they were going for a split up with heros with powers and ones without, leaded by Batman as shown by his feelings at the end of the Doomsday episode. An Outcast group. But later they decided to do the Final Fantasy head boss thing with Luthor/Brainiac.

sorry, wrong again...we DID discuss the possibility of batman leaving the league (or even going over to cadmus' side) but dismissed it right away....

we had the luthor/brainiac thing planned pretty early on, definitely by the time we did "doomsday sanction" (why else would we have spent so much time in that ep setting up his presidential bid?)...

 

[Revelator]

I don't know if it's a tribute or insult to say that the arc still has a seat-of-the-pants feel. Hopefully it's praise, even if I thought the story was brokenbacked. I'd have preferred seeing Luthor as the President from hell rather than Brainthor, but I know I'm in the minority. And that malevolent close-up of Bruce at the end of Doomsday Sanction seemed to intimate a world of things that never happened. Anyway, if that

Spoiler

source wall

rumor is true (or if it isn't, no loss), I'm looking forward to this season's finale, though I presume that won't be a four-parter. I still watch the show as a died-in-the-wool optimist.

 

[I-Am That Is]

sorry, wrong again...we DID discuss the possibility of batman leaving the league (or even going over to cadmus' side) but dismissed it right away....

Really?

Why'd ya give the Outsiders such short shrift?

 

[Fone Bone]

sorry, wrong again...we DID discuss the possibility of batman leaving the league (or even going over to cadmus' side) but dismissed it right away....

Really? I have to ask what made you dismiss it immediately although to be honest I preferred the entire league coming together at the end rather than a split. Could you tell us the specific reasons why you decided to keep Batman in the League?

By the way, the Cadmus arc was one of the greatest stories I have seen in ANY medium, cartoon, live-action, comic, or novel.

Oh, and there's a Serenity talkback in The Entertainment Board. One of the best things about the movie was seeing Black Canary, Vixen, Vigilante, and Jonah Hex!

 

[Doomsday]

Really? I have to ask what made you dismiss it immediately although to be honest I preferred the entire league coming together at the end rather than a split. Could you tell us the specific reasons why you decided to keep Batman in the League?

By the way, the Cadmus arc was one of the greatest stories I have seen in ANY medium, cartoon, live-action, comic, or novel.

Oh, and there's a Serenity talkback in The Entertainment Board. One of the best things about the movie was seeing Black Canary, Vixen, Vigilante, and Jonah Hex!

Yeah I sort of liked the Outcast idea but still love where it ended up going. Flash never had looked cooler in his life, just that one moment in my eyes made me think he deserves to be in the same level of greatness as Batman and Superman. And yes I agree on the Cadmus arc being one of the greatest stories ever, better than Star Wars. O and I'm not a fan of Star Wars but don't let that change anything. I'm just hoping the LoD arc can come close to the Cadmus arc.

 

[John Cage]

By the way, the Cadmus arc was one of the greatest stories I have seen in ANY medium, cartoon, live-action, comic, or novel.

Agreed. JLU seasons one and two can't come out on DVD soon enough (it screams 'marathon-viewing').

Have a good day.
John Cage

 

[A.J]

Agreed. JLU seasons one and two can't come out on DVD soon enough (it screams 'marathon-viewing')

Yeah I wish I wouldnt have to wait for them after I get kids and grand sons & daughters

 

[Fone Bone]

Seconded.

Yeah, and I'm including the Jossverse stuff. I don't think Buffy or Angel ever had an arc as consistantly high quality as this one. And dat's a huge compliment from me.

 

[Grimlock]

All I'm saying is that if your expecting some huge epic plot like Cadmus, you might be disappointed in the outcome of this arc, because obviously, it's not trying to follow what Cadmus did. I see this arc as the creators having fun with a plot device used before and they're just modernizing it for us viewers today. In no way do I mean you shouldn't have high expectations for the episodes that they're making. I agree that each season has gotten better, and by no means should you not expect this season to be better, but it felt like people were complaining about this episode because it's not the epicness of Cadmus and it doesn't have some complex, eccentric plot dating back to B:TAS. I was just giving a suggestion to the viewers as maybe another way of viewing these episodes without expecting a 2 season arc and a Divided We Fall type finale.

Ah alright, i got the wrong tone from your post then, sorry about that.

I do agree that the creators do seem to be going for a lighter mood this season.

As long as it's good, i'm happy .

 

[Grimlock]

1. If his body is in the middle of the sun, it would be pretty hard to get to.

2. If luthor can create a gun that turns off superpowers, he can probably find a way to copy something like that.

But why would the body stop in the middle of the sun? The ship would just go right through it.

And turning off certain superheroes' powers is strictly science.

Odin granting invulnerability is "magic", as it were. No science involved.

I really don't think Luthor could have done this.

 

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Grimlock
Ah alright, i got the wrong tone from your post then, sorry about that.

I do agree that the creators do seem to be going for a lighter mood this season.

As long as it's good, i'm happy .

That's ok, I didn't really explain myself clearly. Amen to that, as long as it's good, I'll be completely satisfied as well, so far, it's 2 for 2.

 

[DisneyBoy]

Well, everyone was looking forward to hearing what I would have to say once I got to see this one. To be honest, so am I.

But first...

...enough with the random tributes. It's out of control. Yes, I suppose I could have stomached the Viking Prince elements of the script, since they tied into what J'onn was feeling, but showing the flashbacks in a completely non-timm style? Suddenly, I found myself being given the low-down on a comic book character I'm not watching this show to learn about, and worse than that, it doesn't even suit the style of the series! Look, I'm not trying to be rude, and lord knows if Grodd started telling the Legion about the legend of a princess living on Etheria who possessed special powers hailing from castle grayskull, I would have been riveted...but using up episode time to segue into something having very little to do with the show in which it is being presented is frustrating for the viewers. At least it was to me. I don't watch ER to end up watching scenes about postal workers. Nor do I watch JLU to get the low-down on all the long forgotten comic book characters of yore. It's bruce's show, so he can do with it what he wants. I'm just saying that in this instance it didn't fit, and got on my nerves. Surely there was some other person we could have related J'onn to, in terms of illustrating how he should handle his isolation...

That aside, I did like the seeing the episode set in the frigid north, because that's somewhere we rarely get to see our heroes. Other than in the last episode I mean. Or when Superman's at the fortress. Or when Mr Freeze is causing trouble Okay, so maybe we've been up north quite a few times. My point is, it's still an interesting and fresh landscape in which to set a story.

Which brings me to the one character y'all know I'm serious about: LADY DI!

Diana is embassador to Themyscira - YAY
Diana ain't happy to be doin' it - NAY
Diana's trying to set things right with her mom -YAY
Diana don't seem too thrilled to be doing it -Nay
Diana looks kinda like Lynda Carter - YAY
That means Diana won't be wearing anything dressy, being a Princess and all -NAY
Diana wants to get J'onn out and have fun with him -YAY
Diana's pushy about it -NAY
Diana tries to show rich snots that global warming is causing big problems -YAY
Diana gets pushy and kinda threatens that the Amazons will attack unless she gets her way -NAY
Diana and Luke Danes...oops, I mean "Agent Fairaday" seem to have good chemistry -YAY
Does that mean that all the endless flirting with Bruce isn't really going to be dealt with in any clever way - NAY
She does a nifty spin-transformation into her costume - YAY
The animation isn't particularily sharp -NAY
Diana finds herself up against Killer Frost, a very nifty villainess - YAY
Diana get poisonned in a startling moment, and it affects her throughout the episode -YAY
Diana forces J'onn out of his hibernation and along with GA they all kick butt -YAY
Diana offers to use her lasso -YAY
Diana fights like a demon, but without coming off like a cranky-pants -YAY
Diana's face isn't animated with any emotion whatsoever when J'onn makes his announcement...why? Budget cuts? -NAY
Diana reads ending monologue very effectively, seemingly showing support for J'onn's decision, and seeing off the Viking Prince to his happy ending -YAY

My list was rather tedious wasn't it? Well, it spared you having to search through paragraphs and paragraphs of my comments to get to know what I liked and what I didn't. All in all, a good episode that didn't overdose on the wackiness (barbarians from the center of the earth, aliens in egypt or in this case, viking princes) that seems to be becoming a staple. And thankfully, despite having been spoiled ahead of time concerning J'onn's departure, I had no idea he was finally deciding to try and blend in. It would be super cool if the next episode followed him in his attempts to be normal (since it really seems like the heroes in this show could use a grounded, reality-driven episode in their civvies right around now), and even though I know it probably won't, I look forward to seeing him become his own person. Grodd's words in "I am Legion" were very telling. J'onn is the organizer behind the League. Without him, what will become of the team? I hope the next episode addresses this a bit. Getting everyone around the galaxy to work in shifts seems kinda tricky.

Really nice animation all round, but again, not the Dong Yang A-Team who I hope to GOD make a reappearance whenever it comes time for Diana to butt heads with Circe or Ares or to return to Themyscira. Miss them.

So, is this how I wanted to see Diana portrayed? Kinda. I'd prefer her to strive for peace, take to her responsibilities naturally and be less abrasive. But maybe it'll be more interesting this way.

 

[Alex Weitzman]

So, is this how I wanted to see Diana portrayed? Kinda. I'd prefer her to strive for peace, take to her responsibilities naturally and be less abrasive. But maybe it'll be more interesting this way.

Well, obviously they have to believably transition her into her new role. After all, if To Another Shore featured a Diana who was an absolute perfect diplomat and peacemaker, the appropriate and accurate criticism would be that the change between such a characterization and her previous characterization would be so abrupt as to make her new incarnation officially out-of-character. I still love the basic idea behind Diana's stuff in recent years: the effect of Man's World on a just-off-the-boat Amazon causes her to face emotions and situations that she never had before, and she doesn't quite handle it as well as she could. The problem, ultimately, were that the episodes that ended up dealing with this characterization were, for the most part, disappointing for wholly different reasons (the best episode that also dealt with this theme, I'd say, was Maid of Honor). This new development for Diana, I think, will be very interesting: can she pursue the role she was perhaps destined for (a diplomat and ambassador for peace) given this history she has? I think that's more intriguing than if she were just a force of unfettered good and niceness.