Justice League Unlimited "Panic in the Sky" Talkback (Spoilers)

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DerekPowers

Ruler of Gotham City, 2049
May 2, 2001
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Grimlock said:
I find it a cop out. My issue is, we the viewers could see the damage the gun did, we obviously would have assumed there would have been deaths. If the script never even mentioned anything about if anyone died or not, then we could have assumed people did die, and CN would have been happy because it's never stated that people died.
I really found The Flash's comment about 'no casulties' to be really unrealistic. In "Flashpoint", the evacuated Cadmus was bad enough, but you could atleast assume there were civilian causlties. But this just makes it all the more unrealistic, which, for me, and i can only speak for myself, seriously detracts from an episode's enjoyablity. it just bothers me.

The damage to the city shown in "Flashpoint" would make civilian casulties almost impossible. And, honestly, i find the suggestion a little insulting. I know it's the freaking censors fault, but still, it doesnt make it any less easy to swallow. I think the suggestion that no one died just desensatizes people to that kind of violence, and honestly, i hate to draw comparisons to 9-11, BUT, when i watched Flashpoint, that's what it kind of reminded me of. And to suggest that that kind of violence, ESPECIALLY in the world we live in today, would result in everyone being peachy keen and no deaths, is SO irresponsible, imo. I mean, give me a break, its so unrealistic. When is this country going to stop being so backwards when it comes to these kinds of things. If the youth of Japan can survive things like Evangelion, Kenshin, and every other appocolyptic, uber death related stories, then you telling me the youth of America cant handle this? Its so frustrating. And it desensotizes, like i said. To show a realistic aftermath of such destruction, intwined in a compelling and emotional story, could actually do kids GOOD, make them more resopnsible and sensitive, but rather it just trivializes that kind of violence, and desensotizes kids to it. And it just makes those great destruction scenes in Flashpoint seem wasted. AND since our country has experienced that kind of violence in a major city recently, its makes it all the more unrealistic to say no one died, and still expect us to take it seriously. Man, it really bugs me....

Anyway, ALOT of things bugged me about this episode, and while that could all change depending on where the plot goes and what ground is covered in the next 2 epsidoes, I still found the turn of events in this episode to be some-what of a cop-out.

First, I found the whole Cadmus being turned into victims of Lex/Brainiac's maninpulation to be a cop-out. All of a sudden this evil force that's been the main baddies for the whole series, are being turned into innocent victims??? I mean, what about Iling firing that nuke at that island? What about Hamilton and all the human experiments with the Ultimen and such? What about Tala, what about all that? Now we're supose to just be like, oh, they're not so bad after all. They work for the 'real' government, and it's only Luthor who is bad. I was alittle surprised at that turn of events.

I really hope it's revealed later that Waller was the only one in Cadmus who was left in the dark, or who wasnt somehow either being controlled by or working for/with Brainiac/Luthor. As strange as it was to see Waller team up w/ the League all of a sudden, it would make more sense than the suggestion that all of Cadmus all along has been just pawns in Luthors plan. It just seems like a cop-out, and almost like the creative team was doing damage control, as to not suggest that, gasp, the government might at some level be up to no good or be involved in shaddy dealings. I personally would like to see it revealed in the next episode that the other high ranking Cadmus officials are actually either in on Lex's plot, or had been being controlled all along, and were actually manipulating Waller.

Next, while i liked the Supergirl/Galetea fight a lot, i found most of the fight on the watchtower to be a little boring and repetitive after a while. I mean, why not have some of the heros speak? plan? Stratagize? work together? after a while it just turned into a generic, filler slap-fight.

The founding members turning themselves in also seemed strange, but i guess it was reasonable.

Last, I found it REALLY weird that the League didnt even suspect Cadmus was the ones who took control of the laser canon, in order to make the public turn on the league. It would make total sense, ESPECIALLY since the facility was evacuated. I mean, that could be a reason to evacuate, now couldnt it? Evacuate to save your own skin, than stage an attack by the League in order to damage their reputation. I'm really surprised the League didnt even suspect Cadmus, especially Batman. But oh well...


Overall, i think this was a good episode, and i definately CAN FREAKIN WAIT till next week's, BUT i really hope we get more explaination on all the Cadmus stuff. For example, it's implied in QA that there was some grand greater sceme in store, something major. but it implied it was Cadmus's plot, not brainiacs'. Like, i really hope that all the suggestion and all the build up about Cadmus isnt just explained by, oh, it was Brainiac.

I also hope that Hamilton and the other Cadmus officials return. Sure, Waller always seemed SLIGHTLY reasonable, but i find it hard to believe that Iling and Hamilton would all of a sudden team up w/ the League just because they learn Luthor had an alterior motive. Hamilton obviously hates the League, and Iling is just plain evil (after what he does in DS), so now for the all to just kiss and make up, eh, i'm not buying it. Like, i can buy Waller doing it, but only if shes the only good guy in the pit of vipers, you know. She could have been being played by her co-horts, you know? I guess we'll find out.

Now, the good things about the episode, and there was lots:

Batman. He's perfect, every time. His reaction to Superman's plan was great, and the Part-timer line, ah, so they decided to explain it. And it was great. Bruce found a way to get special treatment, as a so-called 'part-timer', where he has more wiggle room that the other 6. Yup, thats Batman. He's the man.

Brainiac. That last scene was OFF THE CHAIN!!! oh my god. First, i hope that really was Lex and not some robot copy. It would make it so much more powerfull, and given all the fantastic things that happen in JL/JLU, it wouldnt necessarily mean the end of Lex as we know it.

Here is what immediately started to think when the episode was over, and really hope i'm right about some of this. I think what Brainiac is doing is setting into motion the destruction of earth, because he's gained all earth's knowledge at this time. That's what he does. Maybe he couldnt destroy earth by himself, so he's ushering in the end of the world buy pitting the League agains the government (and i'm hoping all the world's governments. Like others have mentioned, i hope we see an appearence by the "world essembly" soon, not just the US government). And i'm also hoping that Brainiac was working with Cadmus for a reason: Like, i hope Brainiac wasnt just after Amazo's blueprints (although thats a spicy meatball), but also after MAGIC, which is why he was working with Tala (Magic could be considered part of a world's knowledge and technology), itd be cool if he was after the power of earth's Gods, ie, the Anihlator. If Brainiac truely gained all of earth's knowledge, which is why he's trying to destroy it, then wouldnt it make sense (and be sooo cool), if he got a hold of litterly EVERYTHING. For example, the Chronos technology. All of earth's knowledge would include all the magic we've seen on JL/JLU up to this point, all the hero AND villian technology, all of Cadmus's technology, knowledge and power of the GODS, everything. And now he's trying to destroy the world. I really really really hope that's the case, and that he's evolved into a totally all-powerfull, god-like being, that is now ushering in an apokolipps to fullfill his original purpose: to gain a planet's knowledge and then destroy it.

And i hope the form Brainiac takes is a new, more extreme form, not the old Brainiac body, which has been done to death at this point. I hope its a new and improved, completely evolved beyond the League's wildist imagination, Brainiac. With all that technology at his command (ie, Amazo tech, Chronos tech, Magic, God's power, etc), then if Amazo does return in the next ep (i'm hoping he does, and betting he does in one of the next 2 eps), then even Amazo would be no match for him.

Man, there are so many possiblities. I think the turn of events involving Cadmus in this ep could either be a big cop-out, or a serioulsy bad-ass story, depending on where it goes next week. So i'm trying to not feel TOO much like it's a cop-out untill i see where the story goes.

What i did find to be a total cop-out was the no-causlties thing. It just doesnt make sense. Like, if Luthor/Brainiac REALLY wanted the JLU and Cadmus to fight, wouldnt he fire at a facility that wasnt abandoned? Youre telling me the League had knowledge of that facilities evacuation but Brainiac, who was so closely tied to Cadmus through Luthor, didnt know? It makes NO SENSE. To spark a war, he'd WANT to kill people at Cadmus, AND civilians. Dont tell me Brainiac OR Luthor has a conscience. So again, i know it's a censor's thing (yet another reason to be pissed at 'the man'), but it doesnt make the impact on the believablity of the story any less, AND if the writers know they'd have to do that kind of crap, then couldnt they find a way to alter the story so they didnt have to include that? I'd rather the story be altered inorder to leave out such un-realistic stuff, but i guess it's easy for me to say. This is a great story, but it's believablity is really hurt by all that. I guess i'm just one of those people that really get bugged by stuff like that, and those things really get in the way of my enjoying the overall impact of the episode. I supose IF there was some even more sinister reason Brainiac didnt want to kill anyone in that blast, that it could be more believable, but that seems unlikely. I just wish the writers had thought of a more believable or clever way to deal w/ these censor's issues, than just these completely irrational, illogical, and just plain jarring scenes, in an otherwise really well written story. AND i want to restate that i think its more damaging to send the message to kids that that kind of devestation would result in no deaths. And, it wouldnt have been the JLU's fault, as J'onn kept pointing out, and was right.

Last thing, and my rant will stop. If i'm right in my speculation and Brainiac is trying to usher in the appololipps because he's finally, after all these years, has aquired ALL of earth's knowledge and technology, and i mean ALL of it, then to not include the Joker, i'm sorry, its just SOOOO freakin cruel. I know it cant be helped, but it still stings like hell, ESPECAILLY when Brainiac should know that the best way to fight Batman would be with the Joker ;) . peace.
 
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Rabi~en~Rose

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Knight said:
Are people completly forgetting about Shayera? Thats most likely whose hand that was.
yeah it would make sense for her to catch Batman he voted her out so maybe her saving him from that fall could be redeeming? he's the only original member she hasnt patched things up with I believe
 

Joker1238

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Rabi~en~Rose said:
yeah it would make sense for her to catch Batman he voted her out so maybe her saving him from that fall could be redeeming? he's the only original member she hasnt patched things up with I believe
I did not catch Wake the dead, So did they have votes for members or something??

Like Supes yes?
Bats no?
Flash yes?
WW no
MM yes?
GL yes???

is this about right??
 

mal

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Sinsio said:
They were trying to regain the world's trust. They wanted to show that even they can be held responsible for their actions and that they were not above the law (US law anyway.) They were innocent until proven guilty but that doesn't mean they could not be taken into custody for questioning.
That's my problem with that whole scene. Supes clearly states that the founding members were turning themselves in to DCAU U.S. custody until it could be proven they were innocent.

The problem is that the U.S. government was never depicted as having charged the League with a crime or having made a request or issued a warrant for their arrest. If you're not charged with a crime and you decide to go talk to the authorities you're not normally considered in custody.

So I can understand why they would want to meet with the authorities to answer questions and put on a good face for the world, but I can't understand why they would have to be detained or considered in U.S. custody given those circumstances.

That's what made Superman's "let's go sit in prison until we can be proved innocent" plan seem odd to me. It was like he thought he was dealing with a country that didn't have due process.
 

DerekPowers

Ruler of Gotham City, 2049
May 2, 2001
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Style 92 said:
You know, not liking an episode or plot twist that everyone else does just sucks. Because then you come off like the grinch, trying to convince people to hate something that they love.

sigh.

But, for historical interest, here's a reprinting of my initial thoughts on the episode.



Ha. Wow. Just WOW.

The Cadmus storyline implodes upon itself spectacularly! It's clear that most fans have been overthinking, (perhaps, overestimating) this story dramatically. Sadly, others have been right on the money.

Firstly, there's THIS little gem.

(JLU conference room.)

Martian Manhunter: Cadmus thinks we blew up those buildings.

Wonderwoman: What was the deathtoll? It looked like a nuke.

Green Lantern: Just a few scrapes and Bruises, no one died.

Style 92: Oh come on! That montage right before the firing made it look like all those widows and orphans were going to buy it! and nothing happened?

Wonderwoman: Thank Hera.

Style 92: Alright, that's, it, I'm out.

Superman: What do you think they're going to do to us?

Green Lantern: Hurt us, bad.

Superman: What if we turn ourselves in?

Green Lantern: They'll put us up at the econosuites, pending an investigation.

Superman:...Premium Channels?

Green Lantern: HBO, Showtime, no Starz.

Superman: Cinemax?

Green Lantern: Oh, yeah.

(To rest of the League

Superman: Okay, guys, we're turning ourselves in, until this blows over. Kara, hold down the fort.

Supergirl: But the people hate us now! What if they attack us while you're not here?

Superman: Oh, I trust that you can hold down the fort. It's not like they'd launch a massive attack, or anything.

(Later, during the massive attack)

Supergirl: SUPERMAN, YOU JERK!

Ofcourse, that's not the real trouble with the episode...

Luthor: And with this new nannite body, I will rule forever as a god!

Fans: *smiling, giving thumbs up, waiting for the inevitable "Amazo vs. Luthor-Amazo with the fate of the universe hanging in the balance."

Waller: MELTED!!!

Fans: Awwwe...(shake heads in disappointment)

And this one I do like:

(Batman, falling to his death.)

Batman: Ha! I read Style 92's riffs on Darkheart, So I know what to do this time! FORM OF, A GRAPPLING HOOK!

(Hook bounces off side of building)

Batman: Oh, Crud.

And now, the meat of the complaint. Sorry, friends and neighbors, but it really does seem Cadmus wasn't all it was cracked up. In the end, Cadmus turns out to be... A pitiful little government program with very little power after all. But Wait! They were being used as pawns, and the real mastermind is... just a traditional Superman villain. Ho-hum. But wait again! Lex Luthor turns out to be a disguise, and the REAL master behind the conspiracy is... just ANOTHER traditional Superman villain. yawn.

At this point, the only thing that can save this is if the theme of the League's Moral culpability, and the fact that they ARE too powerful and are overstepping their bounds is explored further, but that seems to be resolved down too: "So we're agreed, we're ditching the Superlaser."

Otherwise, Cadmus is revealed for what it really is: just a bloated, hyper-extended version of the Legion of Doom, only far less charming. Such big build up, such little pay-off. Man, what a rip.

I know, I know, you could say "But, but, there's still two more episodes!" But really, it's hard to envision "Divided we fall" turning out to be anything other than "League and/or government vs. Braniac," Without further "Shocking twists feeling hollow, contrived, and forced. I'm sorry, but from where I stand, this emperor ain't wearing no clothes.

And no one is more disappointed than me.

Edited: You know better with the language... Keep it up and see what happens. (Outlander00)


I'll check back in after next week. Because I'm not interested in talking about Cadmus until I get to talk about how Cadmus as a whole unfolded.
I actually agree with most of your points, and kind of list similar thoughts about complaints i had above, although much more long windedly :p . But i think it still has the potential to pay off. We still dont know for sure how deeply Lexcorp or Brainiac inflitrated the government. If Hamilton and Iling turn out to have been in on Luthor's plan all along, then i'd buy it. Or something else could happen, it's still not beyond redmeption, Cadmus i mean. My main problem was a lot of this episode seemed kind of corny, like, the president, Waller, oh, so the gov are saints, i forgot :sad: . And no one dies, and it ruins the weight and threat Cadmus had with it all season. The fact that the League didnt suspect Cadmus staged the whole attack to make the public turn on them, also was strange. the stakes seemed to be lowered in this episode, with regards to Cadmus. Cadmus definatly doesnt seem it was all it's cracked up to be, but maybe i'm just way to excited about and new version of brainiac to care that much, and all the potential such a story could bring. I'm hoping Chronos shows up next week :D .

But it did seem Waller knew 'the president' really well, so. I think Cadmus could still be cool if it turns out to be only Waller and maybe the president who were slightly good and the rest of the people around them were actually working for Lex, controlled by brainiac, the government completely infiltrated by an outside force, like Brainiac or lex, or an aien force, or some kind of combination. this storyline i think is still redemable because of how much possibilities the brainiac/amazo thing brings with it. peace.
 

Nanashi

Chronic cynic
Feb 11, 2003
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Tim Thomason said:
Also, about the whole "no casualties" thing, the way I think it happened is CN saw the episode(s), realized there was no mention of the number of casualties, and told the creative team to specify the number of casualties (0).
Agreed. I think people misunderstood my first post - I didn't mean "Are you honestly surprised that no one was killed in that mammoth explosion" (Because, obviously, yes, some people would have no doubt died in that accident). I meant, "Are you honestly still surprised to hear these censor-influenced lines?"

People call it a cop-out, but I see it as something the creative team was probably forced to put in there, and I was shocked that so many people here assumed the show could get away with mass civilian murder. It wasn't a "cop-out" - it was probably necessary in order to get the episode to air. And if you really don't like it, you could always cover your ears and hum to yourself while Flash was speaking.

"The evacuation's going okay. Lots of minor injuries, but-" LA LA LA I can't hear you! LA LA...
 

maczero

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I think so many people are upset about "no casualties" is because of the realistic depiction of the aftermath from the blast. The massive shockwave, the crumbling overpasses, the tossed over cars that were being driven as the blast hit, and the fallen buildings make it impossible to believe that no one died.

A better way to have handled the aftermath would have been to limit the destruction to the crater where CADMUS hq stood. Probably wouldn't have been as shocking for us (the audience at home), but for the people living near the blast, the fear would be very intense.
 

Quintessence

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Well, here's the thing about Cadmus, and I can totally understand why everyone's so upset that they found out this clever shadow-ops government turns out to be Handily Plot Device for Luthor number 68...

It probably won't change a thing.

Yes, Luthor was pulling the strings, but he only pulled the strings of those who had power that did have fears of the Justice League. The only mistake that I see that Cadmus bought into was the laser. All their other fears were stemmed on "What if the Justice League went Rogue", Luthor or not, that's still a viable option, and one they might prepare for even more seriously now that the waves of Ultimen failed to even bring down half of the league with the most powerful members not being there. I'll be severely disappointed if after the end of this arc, Waller shakes hands with Batman and says "Well, we got you all wrong, partner, but at least we became friends out of this".

And for those who say the Justice League will fight Brainiac and Cadmus will be so impressed that their lives were saved by their enemy.... please. Most of them wouldn't be here today if not for all the times the Justice League saved the world. It wouldn't change anything in their minds. Remember what how the President acted "Yeah, you kept this planet from being orbital debris a hundred times over, but that big laser thing kinda voids all that". That's the nature of humans, no matter how much good you do, the second you slip up, you're not to be trusted any more.

I took it for what it was. Cadmus being controlled by an outside force, for at least part of the way. And then when the two powers proved useless, they were turned on each other. I just find it sad, completely sad the reasons why Brainiac did what he did. He has the knowledge of countless worlds, more technologically advance than us. But he needed Earth's know-how to build his ultimate body? I call Bull. If it was just to get rid of the League, that's better. And even more plausible, given now how the League might now be a force beyond his reckoning. But because he needed Cadmus's specs for his new shell? Wrong.
 

mal

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Quintessence said:
I'll be severely disappointed if after the end of this arc, Waller shakes hands with Batman and says "Well, we got you all wrong, partner, but at least we became friends out of this".
I agree with you on this one. Luthor may have manipulated Waller but he didn't make her commit all those crimes. No way should she get off scot free because she's suddenly seen the light.
 

Style

The Green Style Returns
Dec 12, 2003
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Crimefighter said:
It is safe to assume Lex Luthor is now dead after Brainac basically took over his body?
I'm curious as to why you think this is a safe thing to assume.
 

Rabi~en~Rose

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Crimefighter said:
It is safe to assume Lex Luthor is now dead after Brainac basically took over his body?
it didn't kill Gear when Brainiac tookover his body so I have to say Luthor should be fine
 

awh1978

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The problem is that the U.S. government was never depicted as having charged the League with a crime or having made a request or issued a warrant for their arrest. If you're not charged with a crime and you decide to go talk to the authorities you're not normally considered in custody.

So I can understand why they would want to meet with the authorities to answer questions and put on a good face for the world, but I can't understand why they would have to be detained or considered in U.S. custody given those circumstances.

That's what made Superman's "let's go sit in prison until we can be proved innocent" plan seem odd to me. It was like he thought he was dealing with a country that didn't have due process.
While that may have been Superman's intent, in reality we never saw what they did to them after they truned themselves in. They weren't handcuffed, and presumably weren't shackled up in separate cells. It's also possible that if they had asked politely, the authorities would have let them go. It would have been nice to see them sitting around, perhaps talking about how they should all call themselves part timers to enjoy the perks of elite status without the obligations, but there just wasn't enough time.

One thing that this episode did illustrate is the lack of a command structure without the big 7. They were pretty much fighting for their lives so there wasn't much need for strategy, but I don't think Supergirl has enough experience to be the top field commander. It's not entirely clear who should be top dog.
 

FALLEN ELDOR

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awh1978 said:
It's not entirely clear who should be top dog.

I'd say somebody with a little more experience then an 18 year old child ;)
If anyone should have been left in charge it should have been the "old timers" like Wildcat, Fate and other (ahem...) senior members. :sweat:
 

Grimlock

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Dwayne McDuffie said:
You know that for a fact, do you?
No, it was an assumption on my part. The reason i assumed was because having seen the effect of the gun, i think most viewers *would* have assumed people died. So the fact that Flash actually came out and said "no casualties", i figured it was stuck in there to please CN.

But please, if i'm wrong, enlighten us, because i'd like to know if we're all riled up over this for nothing.
 
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Grimlock said:
No, it was an assumption on my part. The reason i assumed was because having seen the effect of the gun, i think most viewers *would* have assumed people died. So the fact that Flash actually came out and said "no casualties", i figured it was stuck in there to please CN.
But you argued the opposite, the way I read it. Of *course* there should have been casualties, deaths even. The reason we'd go out of our way to say there weren't any should be self-explanatory. It's a Y-7 show.
 

Grimlock

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Dwayne McDuffie said:
But you argued the opposite, the way I read it. Of *course* there should have been casualties, deaths even. The reason we'd go out of our way to say there weren't any should be self-explanatory. It's a Y-7 show.
And yet it doesn't appear that the creative team has gone out of their way to explain other times that no deaths have occured.

Do you consider World's Finest and Return of the Joker to be Y-7? There is just as much, if not MORE damage done (joker with the giant wing, and in ROTJ, the giant satellite beam) to cities, and yet no one ever says, "good thing no one was killed from all that excessive damage".

I am sure there are plenty of other examples in other episodes (explosions go off, buildings collapse, etc.) all the time in these shows, and very rarely do i recall characters saying, "good thing no one died from that building collapsing when superman punched kalibak (sp?) into it".

But then my memory may be faulty.
 
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Grimlock said:
Do you consider World's Finest and Return of the Joker to be Y-7? There is just as much, if not MORE damage done (joker with the giant wing, and in ROTJ, the giant satellite beam) to cities, and yet no one ever says, "good thing no one was killed from all that excessive damage".

I am sure there are plenty of other examples in other episodes (explosions go off, buildings collapse, etc.) all the time in these shows, and very rarely do i recall characters saying, "good thing no one died from that building collapsing when superman punched kalibak (sp?) into it".

But then my memory may be faulty.
It doesn't matter what *I* consider to be Y-7. When BS&P asks us to do something, we do it. They're quite reasonable, in my opinion.
 

Grimlock

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Dwayne McDuffie said:
It doesn't matter what *I* consider to be Y-7. When BS&P asks us to do something, we do it. They're quite reasonable, in my opinion.
What does BS&P stand for?

And so you guys *were* asked to do it? That was really my only question/comment, which tells me you guys hadn't planned on doing it in the first place. Thus you didn't really feel it added anything...otherwise you would have done it yourselves, correct?
 

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