Justice League Unlimited "For the Man Who Has Everything" Talkback (Spoilers)

Rate and Post Your Thoughts on "For the Man Who Has Everything"

  • *****

    Votes: 123 61.5%
  • **** 1/2

    Votes: 33 16.5%
  • ****

    Votes: 20 10.0%
  • *** 1/2

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • ***

    Votes: 8 4.0%
  • ** 1/2

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • **

    Votes: 3 1.5%
  • * 1/2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • *

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • 1/2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I saw "Everything" and wish I hadn't

    Votes: 4 2.0%

  • Total voters
    200

raykremer

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Hmmm. I don't get the title. Why would Superman be "the man who has everything"? Bats is the billionaire after all.
 

b.t.

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Messages
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maxnugget said:
Heh, I remember thinking the same thing (in the shot with her crawling). In that same shot, there was a surprisingly......nice......cleavage shot.

I'm sure someone had fun drawing/boarding/animating that scene.

(twiddles thumbs, whistling, eyes skyward):sweat:

but seriously, the intent of the shot was not to focus on the cleavage and cheekage, but to emphasize how much punishment she's been through...i swear! it's not my idea of a cheesecake shot.....

(now that black canary "reveal" at the end of "initiation"....THAT'S a cheesecake shot...)

(i will admit that whoever animated the w.w. scene overseas clearly got into it... ;))
 

LightAngel

Child of Twilight
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Ahh, much better than last week's episode. The acting in this episode I think is what amazed me the most. From Batman's frustration to Superman's rage, I was wowed. I was actually cringing when Wonder Woman was getting pummeled, it was like I could almost feel it. And another thing, Mongul no longer annoys me. I couldn't stand him in War World, but here he proved an interesting villian. His final dream or whatever you call it kind of disturbed me. Superman's dream sequence was also great. I just wish it could've been longer.
 

charles At NC

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b.t. said:
(twiddles thumbs, whistling, eyes skyward):sweat:

but seriously, the intent of the shot was not to focus on the cleavage and cheekage, but to emphasize how much punishment she's been through...i swear! it's not my idea of a cheesecake shot.....

(now that black canary "reveal" at the end of "initiation"....THAT'S a cheesecake shot...)

(i will admit that whoever animated the w.w. scene overseas clearly got into it... ;))

Oh boy Cheesecake ,I just Love Cheesecake,you can never have to much of that:p I will have view that shot again
 

lostrune

Detective Rachel
Joined
Dec 22, 2002
Messages
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Deep Thoughts: 8/7 Sat

Pardon any re-utterance. Too much time, too little to read....... wait, reverse that. :sweat:

1. Whoa, Mongul sure beefed up in preparation since the wimpy in War World. Beefcake. BEEFCAKE!
cartman-angry-coolemoticons.com.gif


2. Damn! Mongul man-handled (literally) Diana like a tramp! :eek:

2b. Though I wonder how far WW would've played possum before protecting her chastity vs. Mongul's grabby little hands. :shrug:

3. Hmmm... Kal-El didn't wash his hands after TP-wiping the dog doo-doo off his "leg-stockings" (which should still be soiled too) and before continuing with the pancake.... :evil:

4. Ending the heart's dream was "like tearing off your own horn"....?
Is the b.t. crew trying to get a Lorena Bobbitt one over the BS&P here? :D

5. At least this ep delineated that Supes is a notch above WW. :p

Nah, it's all good. :)
 

SilverKnight

Sigh.
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In my head.
lostrune said:
4. Ending the heart's dream was "like tearing off your own horn"....?
Is the b.t. crew trying to get a Lorena Bobbitt one over the BS&P here?:D
I believe that was, "It must have been like tearing off your own arm."

>snickers< Horn. Heh heh. :D
 

JusticeLeagueLegion

Samantha is a hottie!!
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Mynd Hed said:
Meh. This episode wasn't bad, but frankly, I'm flabbergasted by all the perfect scores it's garnering. I liked this episode better when it was called "Perchance to Dream," it was focussed squarely on character, and half the running time wasn't wasted with alien-fights-alien filler. Other thoughts:

* Why does Batman dream in sepia-tone?

* Batman's ultimate fantasy is watching his own father become more hopelessly violent than most of the crooks Bats has taken down over the years? Yeah, right. Bad piece of characterization here, because THIS is not the Batman I know from the rest of the DCAU.

* Superman's little decision that his dream life was all a phony was very abrupt and seemed to lack any real reason to it, which lessened the impact of the "goodbye" scene with his dream-son. Between that and the endemic problem with all such plots-- that it's near-impossible for the audience to feel any real connection with characters that they know from the beginning have been introduced only to be killed off-- I didn't feel any real emotional response to anything in the episode.

So yeah, this episode had some good animation, good voice work, and good music, but the writing could've used some work. Not bad, but not as good as everyone's making it out to be. I give it a B-. Honestly, I liked last week's episode better-- sure, it unabashedly had no plot, but it had some neat action scenes and fun music.

...Boy, it feels weird voicing criticism now that I know b.t. is around on these sorts of threads. Oh, well, I guess you don't do his job as long as he has without learning how to deal with it, and there's more than enough gushing going on here to balance it out.
Well, I did feel that the Van-El stuff could have been longer. I guess what I mean is maybe as a two-parter this would have worked better. But I still thought it was quite sad when Superman's dream world exploded. Superman sacrificed everything in a sense. He knew it wasn't real but still, but who cares you know? I've had so many dreams where I wish I could stay asleep. Only his dream seemed like it was real moreso than anyone's dream. So anyway, I found that somewhat strange that you had know emotional response to that. Was you laughing your head off when Dan Turpin was killed?
 

Mister Intensity

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Joined
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Messages
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A major difference between the comic and animated versions is that more time is spent on the fantasy in the comic version, while the animated version is spent on the fights, particularly Wonder Woman vs. Mongul, which only took up a few panels in the comic yet the brutality was evident because those few panels illustrated how much Mongul outmatched Wonder Woman. The animated version is more of a character study, while the comic version is an allegory of the rise of Conservatism in Great Britain (with obvious parallels to the United States, although Moore's focus was Britain).

Honestly, it would be interesting to see how the episode would have been received if the adaptation was more to the spirit of Moore's story rather than just Moore's plot. Considering what's going on recently with Reagan's death, the War in Iraq, and the current election, Moore's story is just as relevant today as it was in 1985. If the Justice League team was more faithful to Moore's story then the parallel DCAU episodes would be "A Better World" or "Brave New Metropolis" rather than "Perchance to Dream."

Mister Intensity
 

Supremus

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JusticeLeagueLegion said:
Well, I did feel that the Van-El stuff could have been longer. I guess what I mean is maybe as a two-parter this would have worked better.
Let's never say JL 2-parter again :) This story was just right for a single episode. Unlike Perchance, which took place almost entirely within the dream, FTMWHE only gave us a few short glimpses of Supes' perfect world, and that was all it needed. I don't think the big goodbye would have been any more emotional after an extra 22 minutes of padding.
 

Mynd Hed

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One other minor nit-- Batman tries all kinds of lasers and such on the evil mind-control plant, but nothing works, until he finally hits on it... the only way to remove it is to PULL REAL HARD! Not a big complaint, I just find it kinda funny that Bats tries out all his toys first and only then hits on the low-tech solution. You'd think the first thing he would've tried would be just yanking on the thing.
 

Yarharhar

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lostrune said:
3. Hmmm... Kal-El didn't wash his hands after TP-wiping the dog doo-doo off his "leg-stockings" (which should still be soiled too) and before continuing with the pancake.... :evil:
It's his perfect world, remember? Dog-poo is not only clean in a perfect world, it's delicious!
 

Knight

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Mynd Hed said:
One other minor nit-- Batman tries all kinds of lasers and such on the evil mind-control plant, but nothing works, until he finally hits on it... the only way to remove it is to PULL REAL HARD! Not a big complaint, I just find it kinda funny that Bats tries out all his toys first and only then hits on the low-tech solution. You'd think the first thing he would've tried would be just yanking on the thing.
Actually my impression was that Batman's talking to Clark is what was causing the plant to come off. That's why he was telling him to fight it and as Superman was realizing something was wrong the Black Mercy started to loosen its grip. It didn't have anything to do with pulling on it. If that was the case Diana could have ripped it right off Batman when it became attached to him. Once Batman overheard Diana calling his name she was able to free him. The Black Mercy only lets go when the person's will breaks the illusion.
 

guinaevere

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Ditto Knight. That was exactly my interpretation of the Black Mercy finally being able to be pried from it's host.
 

Replikon Xum

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In the original comic story, Mongol says something along the lines of:



"Of course, the host could shrug it off -- they just don't want to."

And the Black Mercy was a parasite that feeds off of the hosts bio aura -- it would have eventually killed Superman if he didn't fight the illusion.

Xum
 

b.t.

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maxnugget said:
Timm & co have a tendency -- I think I've actually heard them say it themselves in interviews about BTAS -- that they try to achieve balance with the animation studios. That is, episodes that have a really good script and other good elements (VA work, music, death scenes, whatever), they'll tend to not use the best animation studios for those, and use the higher-quality animation studios on episodes that are lacking in other areas to try to offset other less-quality elements.

actually, to the extent that we have any control over which studio gets what episode, we've done the exact OPPOSITE of what you suggest -- if we have an episode that we especially like, why spoil it with crummy animation? and if we have a show that's fair to poor, why waste stellar animation on it? really, that's just common sense....

fortunately, we've been pretty lucky in that regard..."fear of victory", which i always considered a so-so story, was kind-of a waste of very lovely tms animation, and "mad as a hatter" was just the opposite, a terrific story somewhat soured by crude animation...

but we've actually always had very little control of where the individual episodes went, it's always been pretty much the luck of the draw....we DID manage to avert disaster one time that i can remember: "feat of clay part 2" was originally scheduled to be animated by akom...can you IMAGINE????!

fortunately, we've weeded out the lesser studios, and never really have to worry about which studio gets which episode...both d.r. movie and dong yang have been kicking all kinds of butt...really, we couldn't be more pleased....

(the only reason we're not using dong woo this season is because of scheduling conflicts...we were very happy with their work last season, and would use them again in a heartbeat...they're doing great stuff on TITANS, and the stuff of theirs that i've seen on THE BATMAN is pretty flippin' nice...)

and no, the sweet animation in "kid stuff" isn't "compensating" for anything...that episode is a delight all-around, in my (obviously biased) opinion....the terrific animation is just a bonus....
 
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Weibart

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No Dong Woo this season? But I've been singing their praises :( :D. Dr. Movie did a very impressive job on Initiation, fooling me into thinking it wasn't them. Lois and Clark's scene in 'Only a Dream' urks me, and The 'Monkey Arms' Superman in the beginning of 'The Terror Beyond Pt. 2' always nags about Dr. Movie's job on them. Of course, they do an awesome job, I like em', just nitpickin' :D.

One thing I did love about the fight scene between Mongul and Supes, is the flash lines behind Mongul as he reels back from a punch, in cool slo-mo fashion was very cool. And the blur pan where Mongul's running, which definately had trademark Timm hands and I bet b.t. did board that, were very cool. I love those flash line touchs behind characters, where appropriate, is always a neat touch.
 

lostrune

Detective Rachel
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Steel said:
"Cleavage shots"... ugh... that's disgusting... its a cartoon!

"Complex storylines"... ugh... that's disgusting... its a cartoon! :p

Hey, if ya gets to belittle cartoons, then I gets to belittle cartoons too. ;)
After all, they're all just cinematography. :cool:
 

StClair

... stop hugging me, Kent.
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Somewhat late comments from a viewer and sometimes lurker, who finally registered yesterday:

* My reaction to the Invisible Jet was basically "heh, cute" and "ooh, pretty." Lighten up, folks. It doesn't mean we're going to get Wendy and Marvin any time soon.

* It's unfortunate that such great performances by the voice actors mean that the false or flat notes are so jarring. Still, Newbern's quavering goodbye and his enraged "HAPPY?!" more than make up for a "Burn!" that could have been punched up a bit; Conroy could only read the monologues given to him (and you gotta admit, Moore can be a wordy guy), and was in his usual excellent form otherwise (whether it was meant to have deeper meaning or not, having him also be the mugger was downright creepy); and Eisenberg's raw scream of "BRUUUUCE!" still gives me chills, while her earlier banter was very casual and genuine. Bonus points for getting Chris MacDonald back to do Jor-El.

* I read the original story back in the day, and thought this was a good adaption. Some things were shortened or cut, but I think that in an animated form, the story is stronger for it (see next few points).

* Would any of us really have sat through 40+ minutes of Kal's family life on Krypton, to say nothing of Mongul beating the tar out of Wonder Woman? Remember, even Perchance to Dream was only a half-hour show. (Speaking of which, I should probably watch that again.)

* I actually think it makes more sense for the Black Mercy's fantasies to be perfect, if shallow and illogical, rather than the flawed Krypton Moore wrote about. Clark can live in a perfect world that's half Krypton, half Kansas; Bruce can relive that fatal encounter as it should have been, endlessly. These visions don't have to make "sense" to us - they're dreams. And it makes them that much harder to escape, and more heroic when one does.

* The destruction of Krypton in the STAS pilot (and other tellings I've seen) was an unfortunate but inevitable and necessary prologue. Here, it was presented as a very personal tragedy and, in a literal sense, the death of a dream. Kal/Clark already had knowledge of Krypton's end, courtesy of Jor-El and Brainac... now he has the experience.

* Showing Mongul's vision of victory - brutally killing the Kryptonian, his woman, and the Bat before turning Earth into a flaming ruin - simply wasn't going to happen in a show without a TV-MA rating. Maybe if the episode was only shown during Adult Swim...

* While the old BTAS Robin might have fit in this episode, it works just as well without him. The focus of this story is rightly on the Trinity; it's just that, back when Moore first told the story, Robin was basically an appendage of Batman. This League's Batman is a loner.

* Likewise, while calling in other Leaguers was a theoretical option in the original story, it wasn't likely; not only were their numbers fewer (as in Seasons 1 and 2), the Superman of the time outclassed everyone else by at least an order of magnitude (thus Mongul's confidence, having neutralized him). Also, on a practical level this is something that needs to be dealt with immediately by those already on the scene, with little time to call for backup; and on a story level, it's a very intimate piece that revolves around the three flagship characters (and the Arrogant Villain of the Week).

* A lot of people seem to have missed this because of its sheer mundanity (or maybe just not found it worth commenting on). Van has a pet dog - an Earth dog - and Clark/Kal accepts it without blinking. Like I said: ideal, though illogical. Hm... does this mean that both Clark and Bruce are "dog people"?

* Finally, I doubt Diana was ever ensnared by the Black Mercy. Not only is she physically stronger than Batman (even when beaten to within an inch of her life), that would dilute the impact of the two dreams we do see, both of which are ended by the hero's "official" origin... but while the Last Son of Krypton has made a new life for himself on his adopted planet, Bruce Wayne is (as an astute poster noted) still in that dark alley, and probably always will be.
 

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