Justice League Unlimited "For the Man Who Has Everything" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Mr. Obsession]

For those who complained about Wonder Woman appearing too weak when fighting Mongul, you could always chalk it up to Mongul having brought some of War World's naturally occurring Plot Gas* along with him.



As for the episode itself...


SWEET MOTHER OF MERCY! That was fantastic. I absolutely loved every minute of it.

If we were still running the hour-long format I'm sure the episode would dramatically increased the length of the dream sequences showing us more of Krypton's society and Kal-El's family, Jor-El's mental state, find a way to include Kara in there somehow, have more of Superman's real memories assert themselves into the dream (maybe have maybe have the real Brainiac's voice show up for a second, or have Loana actually transform into Lois for a moment), maybe even include Robin in the episode (though he wasn't missed as the episode worked extremely well without him). But as it was, the episode we got was only 22 minutes long, and it worked as is. In fact, had the episode gone longer I fear that the other JL members would have been called in, which would have absolutely ruined the episode.

Superman's fantasy Krypton actually being a hybrid of the Earth he knows and the Krypton he wishes he knew was fantastic (as was the slipping in of Pa Kent's voice for just a moment). It wasn't the real Krypton, but it was the Krypton that gave Superman the best of both worlds, it was his ideal fantasy. I also loved how Superman coming out of the fantasy was directly tied into the destruction of the fantasy Krypton. It placed Superman in a very similar position to the real Jor-El, knowing that Krypton is doomed but no one believes you, the only major differences is that Superman had no means with which to save his son. Having Superman experience the destruction of Krypton first hand does something else; it gives him a personal tragedy on par with Batman (which was perfectly depicted in the episode). The fact that was all a fantasy doesn't matter because it was real to Superman.

The fight scenes were nothing short of brutal and totally made up for War World. I remember reading on these boards, and others, that if anyone other than Superman finished the fight with Mongul in this episode there would be hell to pay from the fans. Well, this time around Wonder Woman got the last blow in, and I wasn't upset at all. Superman got to give Mongul exactly what he deserved, in fact Superman had all but won the fight when he decided it was over, going any farther would have dishonored he memories of his Krypton, as well as the lesions he learned and sacrifices he had made thanks to Darkseid and others. So as far as I'm concerned, Superman got the win here. Wonder Woman just got to make up for the beating she received, but was able to find the willpower to keep on fighting during, like only Wonder Woman should.

In fact, should Mongul show up again, I hope Wonder Woman gets to beat the snot out of him. She deserves it.


All in all, Superman was Superman, Batman was Batman, Wonder Woman was WW, and Mongul got to display a sense of suprime arrogance that was sadly missing in "War World."

And the Invisible Jet rocks. Period.


Kudos to the creative team for picking such an excellent story to adapt, for adapting it so well, to the voice actors for their superb performance, and to the animation studio for the bang up job. Five stars.





*Plot Gas © Maxie Zeus, 2002

 

[Platinum V]

People...

That was most definitely the invisible jet. Why are so many posters trying their best to dispute that? It seems like no matter what the producers do to make Diana cool some posters just have to have something to complain about. Why shouldn't she be able to have her invisible jet just because she has the ability to fly? Most of us can walk, right, but isn't a car quicker and more convenient? Why should she have to rely on Batman's jet or the Javelin. Superman is cool. Batman is cool. Wonder Woman is cool too. The creators are doing a fine job on her so to the WW bashers, would you please chill out, because they're finally showing us all of what makes WW the hero that she truly is. Hopefully they'll find a way to "magic" up her lasso.

Anyway...(now that i've gotten off of my high horse)

This episode was on fire!
Every aspect of it rocked! Supes and Batman's dream sequences. Diana's holding her own against a being more powerful than Superman when she could have easily just have flown away. I agree with one poster that said that this ep was about friendship. Bruce's concern for Diana when she was fighting for her life as well as his unspoken concern for Clark. Diana's facing death so that Bruce can save Clark as well as her concern for Bruce when he was caught up in Mongul's dream trap. (By the way...Kudos to Susan Eisenberg for some amazing voice acting).

These three heroes are DC's flagship heroes and i'm glad that no other hero in the DCU was there to share in that. These 3 deserved their very own episode together and i'm glad that the producers did a fine job at it.

Before another DC comic book movie is done i just hope that the powers that be look at the JL cartoon for ideas and inpiration.

 

[slackermonkey]

Fandom is a tricky business.

I don't think anyone is necessarily complaining about the invisible jet, or it making Wonder Woman look like a huge dork (I certainly wasn't). I think it's more a matter of why it was included when there are already three other flying vehicles at the League's disposal, why Wonder Woman even has an invisible jet (I'm assuming she owns it here, since she owned it in "Superfriends") if she can fly, and where it came from all of a sudden, since she and none of the other Leaguers have used it before.

What would make the most sense is it being the Javelin with a cloaking device, but if it's just a random shoutout to the fans with no real purpose, fine. I have no problem with an invisible jet. It certainly isn't something that should take away from any enjoyment of the episode. It just raises a few questions, that's all.

As to why taking the Javelin or Batplane would make a difference, those are established vehicles, not one that just randomly showed up for a few seconds in one episode with no explanation. Plus, she's travelling with Batman, who can't fly. She could just carry him there, but it'd be a better precaution to take a flying vehicle in case of an emergency on the way there or back - especially if she has to fight while airborne, in which case she'd have to drop Batman.

 

[Darkseid]

Much, much better episode this time out. But still too much focus on action when the stuff I really cared about was Clark's ideal world. Oh well. Them's the breaks. It may not be up to traditional Justice League snuff, but it's still dang good. It reminded me of "Perchance to Dream," if only you replaced half of that episode with a Wonder Woman beatdown.

A few notes...

- Apparently Clark's a sucker for redheads. Well, except for Lana. It's interesting how so many people view this as a combo of Lois/Lana just because she's a redhead. The main reason this doesn't make sense is because Clark has never shown any romantic inclination towards Lana in the animated series — in fact, he's actively avoided all her affections.

- How in the HECK did Mongul get into the Fortress?

- Okay, Mongul sucks a little less now, but he's still pretty boring.

 

[Knight]

- Apparently Clark's a sucker for redheads. Well, except for Lana. It's interesting how so many people view this as a combo of Lois/Lana just because she's a redhead. The main reason this doesn't make sense is because Clark has never shown any romantic inclination towards Lana in the animated series — in fact, he's actively avoided all her affections.

Actually it does make sense. Besides the name being a huge indication (Loana) the personality was a mix of both Lois and Lana as well. Her saying she couldn't get him off the farm if she set a quantum bomb off under him was pure Lois Lane wit. While the fact that she found the Argo museum event she was reporting on to be a "bore" was all Lana. As a matter of fact most of her mannerisms were Lana including the sultry demeanor she exhibited.

 

[Darkseid]

While the fact that she found the Argo museum event she was reporting on to be a "bore" was all Lana.

Sounds like Lois to me. She was always complaining about getting the boring stories instead of the hot scoops.

 

[Knight]

Sounds like Lois to me. She was always complaining about getting the boring stories instead of the hot scoops.

Im not saying she wasnt part Lois because she was but you are saying there were no Lana traits in her other than the hair and I dont think that is true.

 

[Toddman]

Now that I've seen this episode agian, I really have to applaude the cast on a truly marvelous job. The script and the direction were great also, but heaping any more praise toward that would only be redundant at this point.

The voice actors really turned it up a notch for this one.

Susan Eisenberg delivered a solid portrayal of WW. She spoke her more "conversational" lines with just the right amount of casualness (it didn't sound like she was reading from a script) and her delivery during the fight seen of "you won't win" while being strangled by Mongul was a highlight.

Eric Roberts portrayal of Mongul was truly menacing. He carried many lines off with an aristocratic snobbiness that surpassed anything he did in "War World." The environment for this episode, a dark secluded location where his threats could be issued in a more intimate way, worked better with his dark, villainous voice than trying to deliver a similar threat over a screaming crowd. (I also thought the score of guitars grinding in the background while he spoke added to the edginess of his performance.)

Kevin Conroy, as usual was spot-on, but even he managed to deliver something from Batman we've really never heard before. His "Nooo...cash." line was like hearing something from Joey on "Friends". Loved the "nothing's working!" line also.

But I really want to single out George Newbern for the job he did on this episode. Great work for the entire 22 minutes, but his dialogue with Van-El was a gem. During his final scene with his "son," he really sounded like he poured his heart into the delivery of each line, and I thought it was without a doubt, not just the best voice performance on any episode of JL, but maybe one of the finest dramatic readings in animation I have ever heard. He could have just "read" those lines with the appropriate amount of seriousness in his voice, or he could have gone over the top with blubbery emotion. Instead, we were treated to a fantastic bit of acting with just the right amount of subtlety and heart. It really raised the enjoyment level of the entire episode for me.

My highest compliments to Andrea Romano and the entire cast.

Toddman

 

[GL2k2]

I was discussing this episode with others, and they made a good point. Basically, this kind of episode derives from Star Trek's "City on the Edge of Forever". We can also trace this back to episodes of popular series like Incredible Hulk "Married" and Quantum Leap "The Leap Home". But who cares, what works works for a reason.

 

[b.t.]

Fandom is a tricky business.

I don't think anyone is necessarily complaining about the invisible jet, or it making Wonder Woman look like a huge dork (I certainly wasn't). I think it's more a matter of why it was included when there are already three other flying vehicles at the League's disposal, why Wonder Woman even has an invisible jet (I'm assuming she owns it here, since she owned it in "Superfriends") if she can fly, and where it came from all of a sudden, since she and none of the other Leaguers have used it before.

What would make the most sense is it being the Javelin with a cloaking device, but if it's just a random shoutout to the fans with no real purpose, fine. I have no problem with an invisible jet. It certainly isn't something that should take away from any enjoyment of the episode. It just raises a few questions, that's all.

As to why taking the Javelin or Batplane would make a difference, those are established vehicles, not one that just randomly showed up for a few seconds in one episode with no explanation. Plus, she's travelling with Batman, who can't fly. She could just carry him there, but it'd be a better precaution to take a flying vehicle in case of an emergency on the way there or back - especially if she has to fight while airborne, in which case she'd have to drop Batman.

ok, here's the deal on the invisible jet....

while it's an obvious nod to traditional w.w. lore, it's AN invisible jet, not necessarily THE invisible jet...and no, it's not just a cloaked javelin...

there actually is an origin story for it....the currently "on indefinite hold" jl dtv explains where it came from....it's a particularly clever idea of dwayne's, so i'm not gonna spoil it now, just in case the dtv ever gets back on track....

 

[Toddman]

there actually is an origin story for it....the currently "on indefinite hold" jl dtv explains where it came from....it's a particularly clever idea of dwayne's, so i'm not gonna spoil it now, just in case the dtv ever gets back on track....

Aw, man, you're KILLIN' us here! Okay, I guess Warner Home Video is who's actually killin' us.

WHV, where's the love?!

Toddman

 

[Mister Intensity]

ok, here's the deal on the invisible jet....

while it's an obvious nod to traditional w.w. lore, it's AN invisible jet, not necessarily THE invisible jet...and no, it's not just a cloaked javelin...

there actually is an origin story for it....the currently "on indefinite hold" jl dtv explains where it came from....it's a particularly clever idea of dwayne's, so i'm not gonna spoil it now, just in case the dtv ever gets back on track....

It figures that the Invisible Jet is a Dwayne McDuffe idea. It seems that Dwayne is the big Wonder Woman fan of the JLU crew. No offense to the other writers but it seems like he is the only one who gets Wonder Woman. Whenever a McDuffe written episode features Wonder Woman there's virtually a guarantee that Wonder Woman sounds and acts right. I'm surprised that he said that he finds it so hard to write for her (of course considering that she usually doesn't sound right when other writers feature her in an episode, regardless of the other merits of the episode, I guess that's understandable) but it's obvious that he has some type of affection for her.

Mister Intensity

 

[b.t.]

But I really want to single out George Newbern for the job he did on this episode. Great work for the entire 22 minutes, but his dialogue with Van-El was a gem. During his final scene with his "son," he really sounded like he poured his heart into the delivery of each line, and I thought it was without a doubt, not just the best voice performance on any episode of JL, but maybe one of the finest dramatic readings in animation I have ever heard. He could have just "read" those lines with the appropriate amount of seriousness in his voice, or he could have gone over the top with blubbery emotion. Instead, we were treated to a fantastic bit of acting with just the right amount of subtlety and heart. It really raised the enjoyment level of the entire episode for me.Toddman

so glad you brought that up....yeah, george really nailed it....it's funny, his original line reading of "i promise you, i'll never forget" that we animated to was pretty darn good, but we had him do it again in looping just to see if we could squeeze just a bit more emotion out of it...he did a number of takes that were all pretty fine, and i finally said, "george, i'm not hearing the tears", and he gave us that little extra bit of voice-cracking/choked-with-emotion delivery....everyone in the recording booth went "WOW" at the same time, spontaneous goosebumps literally crawled up my arms....i'm glad to see george finally getting the props he deserves....

 

[Toddman]

....i'm glad to see george finally getting the props he deserves....

He really deserves it. Considering that in the eyes of so many around here the poor guy has been living in the shadow of Tim Daly, he's really had an uphill battle to win over the fans.

He's got terrific range though, and regardless of how anyone might rate his portrayal as Superman in particular, he's turned out to be a very talented voice actor. It's funny how small a line of dialogue can be when you discover how clever someone's delivery can be. For me, I really started to sit up and take notice of what Newbern could do after his "J'onn J'onzz-esque" reading of "It looks like you're going to have company in prison" from "Injustice for All."

Toddman

 

[creativerealms]

Wow this was a great episode. It more then made up for the disgrace that was Mongul's first DCAU appearance “War World”. This was a great adaptation to a great story. A very accurate adaptation too. It was almost the issue part by part but not quite. Anyway 4.5/5. Yeah they should have shown Mongul’s vision. They did in the original story and it was sweet.

 

[guinaevere]

As one of the more vocal persons who was very unimpressed with Initiation, I wanted to be sure to speak after seing For the Man Who Has Everything. Because it was excellent. One of the first times I've given a highest rating to ... well.. anything.


I don't have the time right now to review the entire thread, nor to compliment the show for specifics. But I do hope to later today.

 

[Fone Bone]

I missed this episode, but I sure as hell am not watching the rerun in PAN AND SCAN. No thanks, Cartoon Network.

Is this one of those situations, that since you heard it was a great episode, you're gonna go out of your way to avoid it? Are compliments THAT hard for you?

I'm just kidding of course. But you ARE denying yourself a treat if you miss this Saturday's airing. Hopefully you can get a widescreen showing SOMEHOW but the episode is too good to not watch just because of the way it's presented. I hate the Cartoon Network bug with a passion, but I won't stop watching the network because of it.

On second thought, I'm gonna up my grade from ****1/2 to *****. It's that good.

 

[GreenArrowsman]

Well, this is my first official post on the DCAU board and I’m just happy to be here. I been lurking on this board for six months now and I have decided to join.



The episode itself was just plain surperb. Ever since I herd they were going to adapt this story I was on the edge of my seat and now that I finally saw it, let me just say wow.



The action was great, I rooted for Wonder Woman the entire time. I personal never liked Mongul and I was estatic that Superman was kicking the tar out of him. The idea that he got caught by his own trap was purley ironic to me.



Over all I give this episode five stars mainly because one of my favorite heroes Batman was in it.

 

[Darkseid]

So, how DID Mongul find the Fortress of Solitude and get inside?

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

 

[Mynd Hed]

Meh. This episode wasn't bad, but frankly, I'm flabbergasted by all the perfect scores it's garnering. I liked this episode better when it was called "Perchance to Dream," it was focussed squarely on character, and half the running time wasn't wasted with alien-fights-alien filler. Other thoughts:

* Why does Batman dream in sepia-tone?

* Batman's ultimate fantasy is watching his own father become more hopelessly violent than most of the crooks Bats has taken down over the years? Yeah, right. Bad piece of characterization here, because THIS is not the Batman I know from the rest of the DCAU.

* Superman's little decision that his dream life was all a phony was very abrupt and seemed to lack any real reason to it, which lessened the impact of the "goodbye" scene with his dream-son. Between that and the endemic problem with all such plots-- that it's near-impossible for the audience to feel any real connection with characters that they know from the beginning have been introduced only to be killed off-- I didn't feel any real emotional response to anything in the episode.

So yeah, this episode had some good animation, good voice work, and good music, but the writing could've used some work. Not bad, but not as good as everyone's making it out to be. I give it a B-. Honestly, I liked last week's episode better-- sure, it unabashedly had no plot, but it had some neat action scenes and fun music.

...Boy, it feels weird voicing criticism now that I know b.t. is around on these sorts of threads. Oh, well, I guess you don't do his job as long as he has without learning how to deal with it, and there's more than enough gushing going on here to balance it out.