Justice League Unlimited "Double Date" Talkback (Spoilers)

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Huntress represents The League and they cant have members going around murdering people. Thats not what they are about. But if your take is that trying to murder someone out right is ok and that they shouldn't face any kind of punishment than that's you. So while I know Hawkgirl committed a terrible act against the League she had good intentions and when they didn't work out she did the right thing. As we all know she didn't know the Thanagarians were going to try to blow up the planet.

I never said Huntress shouldn't be punished, but she shouldn't have been kicked off the League. Maybe put her on prohibation for a few weeks and try and help her work her problems out in some other way and support her, you know, like a team would do?

Hawkgirl didn't know what the Thanagarians were going to do, but she still sold out the League. She told all their weaknesses to the Thanagarians, I doubt she thought they were going to use those to have a bake sale. She knew when she gave them that information that it was going to be used against the Justice League.

What she did was 1000 times worse then what Huntress did, and this is coming from a guy who is completely opposed to killing under any circustance.

 

[DerekPowers]

can someone explain to me who Tobias Whale is, why it said he'd appear in the ep description, what his relation is to Mandragora, and why they didnt use Whale, who sounded cooler, AND why someone in the many post mentioned he wanted Mandragora to return, this time as tobias whale.

also, is Mandragora from the comics and if so, what is he, what are his powers, etc. I am still trying to reconcile the fact that BC's sonic scream was so useless against, what would appear to be, a what, super-powered albino?

thanks. peace.

 

[El Zorro]

can someone explain to me who Tobias Whale is, why it said he'd appear in the ep description, what his relation is to Mandragora, and why they didnt use Whale, who sounded cooler, AND why someone in the many post mentioned he wanted Mandragora to return, this time as tobias whale.

also, is Mandragora from the comics and if so, what is he, what are his powers, etc. I am still trying to reconcile the fact that BC's sonic scream was so useless against, what would appear to be, a what, super-powered albino?

thanks. peace.

I found this on Tobias Whale @ http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing32/hoj.shtml

Name: Tobias Whale

Real name: Assumed to be Tobias Whale, but this may not be his birth name.



HISTORY

A sickly albino kid, unwanted and unloved, Tobias left home at a young age to run away and join the merchant marine. At sea, he pushed his body to the limits and built up his muscles. He also gained a heavy respect for the sea and developed a lifelong attachment to it.

Returning to land, Tobias Whale was now a strong man and an imposing figure, but he was still misshapen and odd. Although much of his history is unknown, it could be assumed that he fell in with some unsavory smuggling operations or corrupt dockworkers unions. What is known is that his power and influence grew, and he became involved with a criminal organization known as the 100. (It is assumed he wasn't the founder or leader, as he has been seen jockeying for status with the other crimelords of the 100.)

Tobias' love for the sea remained even as his operations moved to the inner city of Metropolis, known as Suicide Slum. Tobias' office is decorated like a Long John Silvers restaurant, with maritime memorabilia like fishing nets and rigging and a large ship's wheel...and harpoons, which Tobias will sometimes use as a personal hand weapon. Whale compares himself to the ocean, which can be calm yet forbidding, and which can also become angry and deadly.

Defeated and captured by Black Lightning, Whale managed to escape from prison several times. He has since moved his operations to Brick City, as Black Lightning had also done; it is not known if this is more than coincidence. No further information is available on Whale's activities.

POWERS

Although he possesses no superhuman powers, Tobias Whale has demonstrated the strength to smash through solid oak statues. Whale gained this muscle working on ships in his youth.

Tobias Whale is an albino. Albinism usually causes poor eyesight. It is not known if Tobias suffers from this or not.

 

[Temple Fugate]

*****

Fantastic episode. Most quotable episode of the season, thanks to Simmone's writing complimented by the fabulous voice cast. The dialogue was as juicy as Mandrigora's oysters, especially the car chase scene. The only two problem lines in the entire episode were Mandrigora's unneccessary laugh after Canary's "last meal" line, and Canary's LAME "Nobody messes with the Justice League" taunt. That line was such a let-down! ("Hasn't anyone told you, Mandrigora?" Oooh...wait for it...what cool thing is she gonna say? "Nobody messes with the Justice League." ...what? LAME!)

I think they made Mandrigora a little TOO powerful. (Canary's scream is supposed to kill at close range, and those I-beams! Yeah, I know this is a cartoon.)

Why is everybody ticked off at J'onn? Huntress effectively KILLED Mandrigora when she attacked those pillows. She DESERVED to be kicked out of the league.

The game of one-upsmanship between Arrow and Question was delicious. First GA sees Question pick up a key, then it's revealed that Question threw GA off with the false clue, then it's revealed that GA knows he's been duped. These people are in the League for the very obvious reason that they're DARN GOOD at what they do.

Even Question's drawn-out origin story for Huntress was forgiveable just because The Question probably did it to remind Huntress of exactly the pain she went through, so that she'd do the right then when she encountered Mandrigora and his son. He's also really good at that narration. Jeffrey Combs rules.

Best episode of the season. I'm calling it right now. No Cadmus episode could top this. Great writing, great acting, great animation.
Justice League Unlimited 2x06: "Double Date" - *****

 

[Rosert Gnimhar*]

Well to better understand Steven Mandragora, perhaps we should consider this fun fact about his son, Edgar. John Cage pointed out something quite interesting in the YTV Airs "Double Date" on May 6th (Aired, SPOILERS) thread.

Here's something interesting from JLU story editor Dwayne McDuffie's website -- Mandragora (or more likely his son, Edgar) 'later' appears in Batman Beyond's "Mind Games" as a member of the Brain Trust, in what Mr. McDuffie refered to as a "continuity implant".

Kinda cool, huh?

Have a good day.
John Cage
(Mystery Man)
_________________

In the Batman Beyond episode, "Mind Games", Edgar was a part of an organization known as The Brain Trust, a shadow organization of gifted humans. I suppose it can be assumed that when Steven Mandragora was refering to his son's captors having been "taught the error of their ways," that Edgar, with his own psychic powers, was the one who taught them.


Peace out!

RG*

 

[Dens Maris]

Am I the only one impressed that this season of JLU has cut back on the near-swearing and giggling sex jokes? Sure, Question about to get lucky wasn't exactly subtle nor was GA and BC mating dance in TCatC but honestly it was handled WAAAAAY better than Justice League season two where fanservice about sex and cussin' was kind of pathetic.

I'm glad it's more subtle here, true. Flash's "impotence?" line in that dumb Katma episode was essentially shock value and didn't have the desired humor, but Mandragora's line about putting Black Canary in a cage and having her "sing" has both salacious implications and a nasty villainous pun going for it.

 

[Ruffian]

I liked this episode a lot. I thought Huntress was done rather well here and Amy Acker did a fantastic job voicing her. Good story, good pacing, writing was consistant and I liked Green Arrow's quips.

 

[Fone Bone]

Well to better understand Steven Mandragora, perhaps we should consider this fun fact about his son, Edgar. John Cage pointed out something quite interesting in the YTV Airs "Double Date" on May 6th (Aired, SPOILERS) thread.




In the Batman Beyond episode, "Mind Games", Edgar was a part of an organization known as The Brain Trust, a shadow organization of gifted humans. I suppose it can be assumed that when Steven Mandragora was refering to his son's captors having been "taught the error of their ways," that Edgar, with his own psychic powers, was the one who taught them.


Peace out!

RG*

Was he referred to as Edgar in that episode though? The credits listed him as "Albino". When the Brain Trust returned in The Zeta Project's Ro's Gift a guy who looked a lot like the albino was called Edgar. However he wasn't exactly an albino as his skin was more flesh colored and his eyes weren't pink (he was also voiced by a different actor although he was fat with long gray hair.)

 

[LeatherWings]

Ever think that its because Hawkgirl's one of the original seven and now the original seven are becoming greedy, selfish, and are like all: I'm original I'm in charge, I can do whatever I want. Because they're the bosses, except Batman who realizes this and might try to stop the original seven from there secret plan, little does he know some of the originals weren't involved.

Okay anyways, its basically cuz now MM is in charge and there becoing more like the Justice Lords, cuz they founded it and now they have like little minions that will do all there bidding or get the boot. So far only MM has shown this sign, but ya never know...

 

[Anon190]

Snip. And what woman in her right mind would go w/a guy like Mandragora? (Unless she looks just like him, which would be too much of a coincidence.) Snip.

AP Bio saves the day! The kid's mother might have had Albinism in her family before, and carried it as a recessive gene. Hence, the Fat Albino Kid. See here for a cute little chart.

Anyone remember from "ABW" how Lorder J'onn seemed cold and very snippy towards the other members? We seem to be heading there. That may be why we're picking up on J'onn coldness now.

 

[Fone Bone]

AP Bio saves the day! The kid's mother might have had Albinism in her family before, and carried it as a recessive gene. Hence, the Fat Albino Kid. See here for a cute little chart.

Anyone remember from "ABW" how Lorder J'onn seemed cold and very snippy towards the other members? We seem to be heading there. That may be why we're picking up on J'onn coldness now.

I personally think J'onn was the second most evil Lorder next to Superman. I also think that the writers want us to think that Superman is the League member we should watch out for when in fact we should really be worrying about J'onn.

 

[charles At NC]

As Dr.Kissinger put it, "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."

She saw a disreputable woman with a screw loose kiss an equally unbalanced faceless conspiracy nutjob. Considering how much BS she took from both of them, why shouldn't she say "ewww"? To her, the idea of a Huntress giving the faceless Question a big sloppy one is gross, not only for physical reasons, but because to her romance between two such unbalanced, ethically challenged (in her mind) people is gross. It's not as if she was fond of either character in the first place, and from her perspective, she had no reason to be. Fone Bone is vindicated in nothing, especially not his wimpish tendency of tiring too easily.

To those of you who liked this episode: you will be pleased to know that in future episodes the Question/Huntress relationship is handled quite well and in the same spirit.

sounds like I missed a great episode!!, Bleeping bleep cable box

 

[DerekPowers]

i think that if a dude is gonna make Black Canary's scream look like a dog whistle, then they should have atleast explained what he 'was' and what his powers are. they should have given him more backstory, you know.

anyway, i enjoyed it, and its definately a big step up over most season 1 eps, but i also havent had this many complaints about an ep since TTTB, which was the poorest ep of season 2, imo, so far. the other complaints being no batman, huntress playing the damsel the same way as BC did in TCATC, the teleport fiasco, the lack of development of 'Mandragora'. Luckily there was still some awesome stuff, but it didnt blow me away, like it would have if Batman was involved somehow. peace.

 

[Rebis]

can someone explain to me who Tobias Whale is, why it said he'd appear in the ep description, what his relation is to Mandragora, and why they didnt use Whale ... also, is Mandragora from the comics and if so, what is he, what are his powers, etc. I am still trying to reconcile the fact that BC's sonic scream was so useless against, what would appear to be, a what, super-powered albino?

Tobias Whale debuted in 1977 in Black Lightning #1, the first issue of Tony Isabella's groundbreaking (and short-lived) series for DC. Though DC does indeed own the rights the character (as they do Black Lightning), Isabella has a special legal agreement that gives him a cut of any profits from licensing. Here's what Isabella himself said on his web site:

"According to just about every report, Tobias Whale, the arch-enemy of Black Lightning and, like Black Lightning, a character who was created by yours truly, is appearing on an episode of JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED called "Double Date." Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, those reports are wrong.

They weren't *always* wrong. As I understand it, Tobias Whale was to appear in the episode as it was originally conceived. Much later in the process of actually putting the episode on the air, DC Comics either requested the character not appear in the episode or outright refused to allow him to appear. However, this was so late in the process that apparently some other big nasty crime-boss will appear in the episode who may or may not bear some resemblance to my creation. Shades of Black Vulcan! ... The last word I had was that DC had refused permission for JLU to use him, much as they had earlier refused to allow either JLU or Static Shock to use Black Lightning. If Tobias *does* appear on the show, I'm supposed to get a percentage of whatever DC makes from licensing the guy's appearance. I can always use a few extra bucks...

By the way, I've long been on record as saying Dwayne McDuffie - one of JLU's producers and writers - is one of the few people I would trust to do right by Black Lightning. So my creation's non-appearances on any show Dwayne has been associated with is not even remotely my doing."

[Courtesy of "Tony's Online Tips" at www.worldfamouscomics.com]

I imagine that Gail Simone wrote Tobias Whale into the episode, and that's when the promotional description that was released was put together. Later, someone at DC, mindful of the company's purse strings, probably caught that using Whale would end up reducing the licensing profit. Hence, Stephen Mandragora was born.

 

[DerekPowers]

thanks El Zorro and Rebis for the info.

so Mandragora was Whale. So, did Tobias Whale, in the comics, have superpowers? no, right, according to what Zorro posted.

So are they doing right by this guy's character? does his comic counterpart have superpowers like he did in JLU? is so, how'd he get them? i wish he'd have more of a backstory. thanks again for the info Zorro and
Rebis. peace.

 

[Style]

She saw a disreputable woman with a screw loose kiss an equally unbalanced faceless conspiracy nutjob. Considering how much BS she took from both of them, why shouldn't she say "ewww"? To her, the idea of a Huntress giving the faceless Question a big sloppy one is gross, not only for physical reasons, but because to her romance between two such unbalanced, ethically challenged (in her mind) people is gross. It's not as if she was fond of either character in the first place, and from her perspective, she had no reason to be.

Hmm, well, if you say so. The other reason that occured to me is that she was thinking of the featurelessness of his face and projecting the consequences of that onto other portions of his anatomy. (I can't get any more explicit than that without courting a mod warning, if I'm not already.)

To those of you who liked this episode: you will be pleased to know that in future episodes the Question/Huntress relationship is handled quite well and in the same spirit.

True dat.

 

[jadrax]

Jsut saw this with regards to the Tobias the whale thing on Gail's forum.

This thing with Tobias Whale was a little odd. Tony's a friend, and he know full well I wouldn't do anything that would cause him a problem intentionally. In fact, I specifically asked him if it was cool to use Black Lightning in a story. He was gracious, but at the same time, I got the impression he'd rather I not use the character, whom he feels has been misused.

So, without a moment's hesitation, I killed the story, same as I did after a similar situation with Marv Wolfman and Blade (again, both of them are too gracious and professional to say NO! but I got the impression it would be unpleasant for them). You don't mistreat friends, I say, or cause them unhappiness when you don't need to. Tony and Marv both have always been great to me, and that's more important than using those two characters, as much as I like them both.

When we started this JLU thing, Tobias Whale was VERY BRIEFLY in the outline, but for whatever reason, they wanted to change the character to someone closer to Helena's origin (and I'm told there's a connection one of the other DCU animated shows), so they swapped out Tobias Whale (even though his name still ended up in some of the promo stuff) with a similar character they already had, but had not yet named, I gather. Those guys at the show had a LOT of respect for Tony and his characters, and said so often.

And that line you mention, Corrina, it's kind of funny, but that's actually from an issue of Bop. They liked it so much they asked me to put it in the script. Anyone know which issue it appeared in?

I do.

Best,

Gail


PS. Tony very recently clarified his Black Lightning position some for me, and under the right circumstances, it's not impossible that he could show up in one of the books I write, which just again shows you what a good guy Tony is.

 

[Maestro]

The interactions between Question/Huntress and Arrow/Canary carries it up to five stars and reminds me why I love this show so much. I hope we'll see a little more of Huntress even though she's been kicked out of the League.

 

[randomguy]

I really enjoyed this for much the same reason that I enjoyed "The Cat and the Canary". It's light, fun, edge-of-your-seat action movie stuff that's well-choreographed and well-animated. It ain't "Perchance to Dream" or "The Late Mr. Kent" or even "A Better World", but it's a pleasure to watch, and simple entertainment is harder to do than people realize.

The pacing is, as one would expect from Gail Simone, pleasantly taut. Scenes transition organically from one to another, and the central story is strong enough. The opening sequence is an excellent introduction, the action scenes have a logical place in the plot, and the ethical issues at the center of the story, while not terribly involving, are interesting enough. The dialogue is fun and clever, and though it's a bit groan-worthy in certain places, it adds to the high adventure stylings of the episode.

"Double Date"'s quality was buoyed by its focal characters, who are all intriguing and fun to watch. Green Arrow has a rogueish, working-class, everyman kind of charm, and the Question is a consistently amusing fellow. I disagree with those that consider Black Canary to be particularly petty or manipulative. I see her as a sort of modern-day equivalent to lots of film noir heroines... she's tough but feminine, and more than willing to use her sexuality for her own benefit (which is no crime). She may not be a terribly complicated character, but she's fun and sexy and that's enough to make her ideal for these kinds of episodes.

I'm pleased with the Timm version of the Huntress, who has the character's post-Crisis origin, but lacks the abrasiveness and "edgy" quality that I tend to associate with 90's Huntress. I don't much care for the Jim Lee-esque costume, but hey, that's a small quibble. She's endearing enough to root for, and morally ambiguous enough to be ethically questionable but not outright condemnable, which is a fine line to walk.

Tobias, meanwhile, is an excellent if formulaic villain, suitably imposing and disgusting. He nicely echoes popular Marvel bad guy and frequent Daredevil and Spider-Man foe the Kingpin.

Since we're talking about Joaquim Dos Santos and DR Movie, this goes without saying, but still: "Double Date" is a real pleasure to look at. The storyboarding is excellent, and the fights are fluid, with a genuine sense of weight and impact. The mid-episode car chase is a particular pleasure, given how rarely we see such sequences in a show like Justice League Unlimited.

Overall, again, we're not dealing with high art here, and the central Cadmus story is advanced glacially at best. But the entertainment value is considerable, the characters are fun and likeable, and ultimately, how much more can you ask for?

 

[Grimlock]

Why? Because I can't divine the gulf between the attractive and unattractive in how they are treated by dettached, imperical observation? Because a thing must become a personal incentive for me before I give it any thought? As a matter of fact, I have never associated with the type I mentioned. Doesn't mean I can't recognize the phenomenon though.

No, because you took an awful lot of offense to a girl saying "ew" to someone kissing a person with no face. How did huntress even know if she was kissing his lips? Maybe he has no lips and she was just kissing a solid slab of skin. That seems pretty gross to me.

Seems fine to me, i just thought maybe you had a bad experience.