Justice League Unlimited "Dark Heart" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Ian]

Part of it may be personal preference then. As for me, I'd much rather have distinct characters doing things in the background even if they never have a chance to be developed, rather than more trees and shubs in the background or a bunch of generic fighters (i.e. red shirted ensigns).

I don't understand; you make it sound like empty battlefields were a problem. Was such empty space a bother before?

This is a widely voiced complaint whose justification I find dubious. Frankly, I don't think there was much left of the big 7 that needed further exploration

I seriously disagree. Once we got the masks off, it was a perfect time to begin developing the Leaguer's other lives. Do John, Jonn', or Wally have any friends besides the league? Do they have families? Until Starcrossed, they (with the exception of Batman and Superman) were like the Teen Titans; they had no "secret identities". Now that all secrets were out, we could pay attention to that side of their lives we hadn't seen before.

 

[William C. Maune]

I don't understand; you make it sound like empty battlefields were a problem. Was such empty space a bother before?

Empty battlefields any huge problem, but I do think situations like this work better with more soldiers in the field. It does a better job of showing the magnitude of the situation. "Dark Heart" probably would have worked without as many people thrown into the fight, but I think it works better when they are there. Plus, I think utilizing the background for more than just trees and shrubs is a nice added bonus.

 

[GF2814]

For those wondering, The Gotham River was frozen in TNBA episode Cold Comfort. Of course, if I recall correctly it was Mr. Freeze's bomb...

 

[DerekPowers]

For those wondering, The Gotham River was frozen in TNBA episode Cold Comfort. Of course, if I recall correctly it was Mr. Freeze's bomb...

i thought it might have been a nod to that, but probably not, since he didnt exactly freeze the river, but part of it, in the form of an ice-berg. and plus, yeah, it wasnt his bomb.

who knows, it could have been an adventure we didnt see, which makes more sense. peace.

 

[Yojimbo]

I've done an unholy act and skimmed through these other nine pages but I put up a list of JLU appearances in this episode, appreciate any comment. Waverider was said to have appeared but I never saw him after rewatching and slow playing.

Atom, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Ice, Crimson Avenger, Green Arrow, Elongated Man, Vixen, Nemesis, Huntress, Booster Gold, Shining Knight, Green Lantern (Stewart), Captain Atom, Dr. Light, Dr. Fate, STRIPE, Star, Red Tornado, Steel, Supergirl, Rocket Red, Atom Smasher, Starman, Vigilante, J'onn Jonzz, Aquaman, Aztek, Wildcat, Blue Devil, Fire, Ray, Vibe, Commander Steel, Dr. Mid-nite, Gypsy, Black Canary, Crimson Fox, Obsidian, Hawk and Hourman

 

[Grimlock]

Howdy,

I run hot and cold with Warren Ellis. I think some of his stuff is tremendous (Planetary) and some of it is really tedious and clever without being terribly compelling. Unfortunately, "Dark Heart" is probably falling into the latter category.

Someone else described this episode as "soulless" and I think that's the best description I've heard for it so far. There just seemed to be something missing throughout the whole exercise. A sense of real crisis? The feeling that we were seeing a unified whole? A real new-series Star Trek "Oh no we're down to five minutes let's finish the episode really really fast now" ending? A powerful sense that I've seen this before? Still don't know, and I don't think I liked the episode enough to rewatch it to find out.

The staccato dialogue. Tended to be mirrored. In the action on screen. I didn't feel like. The whole episode held.

Together.

Still, there were a few amusing bits. I did like Batman's calm call for air support, and the Atom's "I'm old and I get tired" line. I was fully expecting some kind of comment about the Bosom Express, and was a bit disappointed when it didn't happen.

Finally, one really obscure nitpick: big props for mentioning John Von Neumann (mentioned by the Atom while he was talking about nanotech robots that consume everything around them), but small demerits for pronouncing it wrong. His last name is pronounced "Noi-man," not "New-man." Read more about him.

Comics plug: If you're looking for something big, strange, and unbearably cool to put under the holiday-ornament-of-your-choice, check out the recently released Absolute Planetary by Ellis & John Cassaday (now drawing Astonishing X-Men).

-- Ed/Ace

Always hold your reviews in high regards, Ace. I agree with everything you say here. Keep writin', i'll keep readin' .

 

[Grimlock]

You're not the only one. I understand why he deadpanned it, but I found it a stupid line reinforcing a stupid action. Like styl92 said, why didn't he save himself? I'm sure you could fanwank a bunch of explanations, but when I spend more time trying to explain to myself why that was plausible than actually enjoying the 'joke', it's a bad joke. Plain and simple.

I dunno, i think the delivery of the joke really made it..."i can't fly...at all."

I think Ellis did a fine job. The Atom's lines were hilarious, IMHO.

 

[karasu]

I think this was the worst episode of the show. I can see that they're setting something up with the military VS heroes, but it's so boring. It's not that I can't tolerate slow moving stories, it's that this one is moving in such an annoying direction. It's like they're doing nothing with the characters. The League is just a collection of Superpowers now. Character development is dead. I learned nothing more about The Atom, nothing new about anyone or anything. The episode only reinforced the idea that the military doesn't trust the JLU, and gave them a new weapon to play with. I don't think the faults on the show can be blamed on ambition or doing something new, it's just a bad idea. They're simply spreading themselves too thin. I thought the first couple of JLU episodes were great, but now it's just a case of 'spot the reject'. It's such a shame because Season two was so freaking good.

 

[maxnugget]

Finally, one really obscure nitpick: big props for mentioning John Von Neumann (mentioned by the Atom while he was talking about nanotech robots that consume everything around them), but small demerits for pronouncing it wrong. His last name is pronounced "Noi-man," not "New-man." Read more about him.

This seems to be a common mispronunciation. When I was at college a number of the professors who talked about him pronounced it "New-man." I think it's one of those things that, unless you happen to learn/hear the correct pronunciation from someone who happens to know it, you could study the guy for years and never know you're pronouncing his name incorrectly. Sort of how people thought ID Software was pronounced "eye-dee" for years until John Carmack pronounced it "id" in an audio interview and the entire gaming community did a collective double-take. Heck, Adobe still to this day can't get everyone to recognize that it's pronounced "uh-doh-bee" and not "uh-dobe"...some things just don't get said much in the audio/video medium.

 

[DLM]

This seems to be a common mispronunciation. When I was at college a number of the professors who talked about him pronounced it "New-man." I think it's one of those things that, unless you happen to learn/hear the correct pronunciation from someone who happens to know it, you could study the guy for years and never know you're pronouncing his name incorrectly. Sort of how people thought ID Software was pronounced "eye-dee" for years until John Carmack pronounced it "id" in an audio interview and the entire gaming community did a collective double-take. Heck, Adobe still to this day can't get everyone to recognize that it's pronounced "uh-doh-bee" and not "uh-dobe"...some things just don't get said much in the audio/video medium.

Whats that? you aren't quite coming through on my "Lie-nix" system

 

[Captain Clown]

Bah, there's no excuse for "Adobe", it's an english word with one pronounciation.

As for Id, you see it typed in all caps all the time, what are we supposed to think?

I've never even once heard "von noi man" though, and I'm studying computer science. :/ Well, at least it's foreign.

 

[SirLemming]

I thought this episode was very exciting and entertaining. I think it would've made a better first episode than the actual first episode, especially with that closing line and closing shot. It almost seemed like it was supposed to be the first episode and they couldn't use it for some reason.

It was definitely more of an action episode than a character episode, and I think it worked well as one. Better than the first episode did, because that episode felt shallow. This one just felt like there was no time for character development.

I never quite understood what happened to the trench, though. I can draw my own conclusions, but I'm not sure which one is right. Seems like a plot point that could have been explained a little bit better.

The overall atmosphere of it reminded me of the second episode with Amazo, but of course without the more thoughtful aspects of that episode.

But I have to agree that the overall look of the show is still pretty stiff. To be honest, I never would have made that criticism if Matt Wilson hadn't pointed it out, but it's really really true. I always knew it; I just didn't know that I knew it. I knew there was something about the show that made it look worse than Batman.
At least it's much less stiff than the first season of JL.

 

[Anarky]

this episode felt like it only lasted 10 minutes
i've only seen it once, maybe it'll last longer after another viewing.

we are seeing a lot of antagonism from the military and gov't.of course, they still dread a repeat of "Legacy"....but the truth is they dislike what they can't control.

"Fearful Symetry"
"The Ultimatum"
"Dark Heart"
have all left us w/ a taste of what may come in the finale

 

[b.t.]

I never quite understood what happened to the trench, though. I can draw my own conclusions, but I'm not sure which one is right. Seems like a plot point that could have been explained a little bit better.

what was SUPPOSED to have happened was that, during the time superman was off-site picking up the atom, the nano-alien assimilated the entire mesa and expanded into the surrounding area, including the area beyond the trench....i freely admit that the visuals didn't quite make that clear (one big glob of nano-goo looks pretty much like another, and the increased scale didn't really "read")....

there are other visual gaffes scattered throughout the episode (but i'm sure as hell not pointing 'em out!)....let's just say that for such a seemingly simple plot, you guys have NO IDEA how extremely difficult and labor-intensive this episode was to do....for me, it was all worth it, for that sublime vigilante/shining knight moment alone....

(and katie RULES ...)

 

[Style]

....for me, it was all worth it, for that sublime vigilante/shining knight moment alone....

Yeah, 21 minutes and 35 seconds of it were a total wash, but that brief 25 second sequance which only fans of obscure comic book characters will appreciate totally made up for it...

Man, I've loved your collected works to date, and BTAS is still the greatest version of Batman ever, but JLU man, I dunno...

 

[Stu]

I'm not a fanboy who knows every single one of those little cameos are, but I enjoy them. It's cool to see so many heroes. Sure, most of them don't talk, but I enjoy it all the same.

When the show was first announced, I was one of those who was like "Ugh, more characters " but, so far, they've proven to be really cool*, like this episode would've been pretty lously without The Atom, as I said in my review on World's Finest.

*Not Hawk and Dove

 

[Krypton_Knight]

I'm a comics fan - but not so much of a DC fan that I really know or care about Shining Knight and this version of the Vigilante - but even *I* thought that was a cool visual.

C'mon guys. You're the ones who've complained over the years "where are the other heroes where 'Legacy' and so-on and so forth have been going down. Now you're getting what you wanted. They're showing you what these swaths of superheroes are doing in these major crises (Well, everyone except the Flash ) and it's still not enough. Quit your belly-aching.

It's nice to know a person's backstory, and it's nice to have character moments, and I wish JLU had more of the latter. On the other hand, I don't need to know a character's name and biography to appreciate their heroism, or get emotionally invested in the story, just as I don't need to know the name and bio of a firefighter to appreciate their heroism in the real world. Judge them by their deeds, not their names.

Except for Vibe, of course. That name's so lame that even Bruce can't redeem *that* character.

KK

 

[TheScarecrow]

C'mon guys. You're the ones who've complained over the years "where are the other heroes where 'Legacy' and so-on and so forth have been going down. Now you're getting what you wanted. They're showing you what these swaths of superheroes are doing in these major crises (Well, everyone except the Flash ) and it's still not enough. Quit your belly-aching.

Sorry for taking this off topic, but I never understood why people whined about the heroes not showing up in Legacy. I mean I read those complaints and my first thought is "why do you care?". I didn't care because I was too busy being engrossed into the story and the acting and everything else that was cool about that two-part episode, and I didn't feel the need to see Batman or anyone else.

Another example; in the talkback for the TNBA Mad Love adaption, some guy wrote "how come Harley Quinn didn't unmask Batman when she had the chance?" or something to that effect, and I'm like "did this guy even watch the episode?".

Some fans just get too anal-retentive about these superficial details that don't matter, I feel.

 

[Fone Bone]

I only know Vigilante and Shining Knight by appearance but, DANG that WAS a cool scene.

 

[b.t.]

Yeah, 21 minutes and 35 seconds of it were a total wash, but that brief 25 second sequance which only fans of obscure comic book characters will appreciate totally made up for it...

Man, I've loved your collected works to date, and BTAS is still the greatest version of Batman ever, but JLU man, I dunno...

afraid you missed my point...obviously, we'll have to agree to disagree, but i think "dark heart" has a LOT going for it, not just the vig/knight scene. we always knew that its straight-ahead, ultra-dry procedural tone wasn't going to be to everybody's taste (and i certainly wouldn't want EVERY jlu ep to be done that way), but we felt it was well worth doing as a change-of-pace one-off. it's not necessarily one of my absolute FAVORITE eps of the season, but it's far from my LEAST fave.

as for "only fans of obscure comic book characters" digging the vig/knight bit, one quick scan of this thread proves you wrong...hell, one quick scan of this PAGE proves you wrong. since it aired, i've had several people -- completely unsolicited -- tell me how much they were knocked out by that little sequence. two different people told me their pre-teen KIDS loved it. now, since kids these days don't even KNOW from cowboys anymore (and they sure as hell don't know the characters from reading the comics), i can only surmise that the scene works on some almost-primal level...there's not really any "logical" reason why the bit is cool, but seeing two classic hero archetypes battling monsters with sword and six-guns, backed-up by one of the absolute sweetest musical cues of the entire season, just SINGS (to some of us, anyway).

so the scene (and the surrounding ep, and practically the entire season, sounds like) doesn't float YOUR boat, fine, whatever. opinion noted.