"Justice League: The New Frontier" Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

Before They Put On Costumes, They Were Already Heroes!

Justice League: The New Frontier
Release Date: February 26th, 2008

Story by: Stan Berkowitz and Darwyn Cooke
Executive Producer: Bruce Timm
Directed by: Dave Bullock

Synopsis: Inspired by the best-selling graphic novel by Darwyn Cooke and produced by the multiple Emmy® award winning animation legend, Bruce Timm, Justice League: The New Frontier is the epic tale of the founding of the Justice League. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are all here of course, and so are Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and Flash - whose incredible origins will be told for the very first time. Strangers at first, these very different heroes must overcome fear and suspicion to forge an alliance against a monster so formidable, even the mighty Superman can not stop it. If they fail, our entire planet will be "cleansed" of humanity.

Comments?

Related Threads:
-Justice League: The New Frontier DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-Justice League: The New Frontier Soundtrack Talkback (Spoilers)
-Justice League: The New Frontier Feature Review (Spoilers)
-DC: The New Frontier Graphic Novel Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman Doomsday Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman Doomsday DVD Talkback (Spoilers)

Note: Remember, this talkback thread is for discussion of the feature film. If you wish to talk about the DVD release, please click on the appropriate link above. We appreciate and encourage discussion. Please keep your posts the thoughtful, relevant and insightful. Please do not post any improper or inflammatory material. We will issue warnings if we believe it necessary.

 

[Cortez2301]

Great movie.I love the sotry,the action and the graphics.I will definitely pick up the book later on.I really liked seeing Batman in his old costume design
(the one with the big ears).The ending was awesome as well,with that montage of clips of the coming future of the DCU.I'll give it 4.5 stars out of 5.

 

[Spider-Man]

I thought this was a great movie and it easily rivals some of the best of the DCAU without a doubt. Now I'm not comparing the two but it's the only comparison I could really come up with right now. I thought the animation was really good. I especially liked the scenes when Flash is going after Captain Cold and the opening scene where Hal Jordan and his friend get attacked in the air. The animation was so well done I thought. This really was a good movie and I'll have much more to say. I was really glad to see the "There's the door, spaceman" line was left intact in the movie. That's just one of those immortal lines from the movie and it sounded great. I think this is a movie that a lot of fans will watch over and over as there is just so much to take in. The designs for the 1950s era also looks great and the voice acting was top-notch. I agree with Timm that Jeremy Sisto did a great job as Batman but I think the voices for Superman and Green Lantern were the best.

 

[SaBaWoJuLe]

This is such a great movie. If not great, then very good. Either way, it was a very positive experience. Kyle was our '50s Superman, Lucy was born to be Wonder Woman, Jeremy did a good job as Batman, David IS GL, Neil did a surprising good job as Flash, and Miguel (spelling) is now new Martian Manhunter. So good job, Darwyn, BT, WB/DC, and everyone who worked on this DTV!

But I have a question: why isn't Superman in the opening credits? Because we have everyone else, including Aquaman, but why not Superman? Is the guy who is flying up before the "hands" shot Superman instead of Green Lantern? Please help me out here, that part is killing my brain.

 

[DerekPowers]

It was a good movie, with nice animation, GREAT pacing, beautiful art direction and design elements, the action was nicely done, I loved how they fit in so many heros, it had interesting character and story moments, but at the end of the day, its just not my cup of tea. (oh, and btw, i've never read the comic).

I dont like the costumes, I dont like the patriotism, I just didnt like that era of superheros, so for me, it just wasnt what I look for in superheros.

While there was a healthy amount of dissent and questioning of the government, I found the overall message and vibe of the film to be WAY too patriotic and nostalgic. To me, its just unsettling and alittle cheesy. For example, after the Korean War, its Vietnam, so I dont really like the idea of the JLA signing onboard for all that, you know? It kind of ruins the end of the movie for me, because u know whats coming.

I also felt Superman was wasted in it. Why did he have to be knocked out during the entire climax? Made his presense seem pointless.

My favorite part of the movie was how it actually LOOKED like a Darwyn Cooke comic come to life. That is the movie's strong point, imo. I loved the casino scenes and thought the colors and backgrounds were great. I like the shading of the character/use of shadows, it really looked like a Cooke comic. Design-wise, there was a lot to like about this movie.

I also LOVED GL's whole experience with killing. I thought that was the best scene in the movie, when he gave insight into that scene at the begining, about how he wouldnt kill the Koreans but would only kill to survive. It was like the big epiphany moment in the movie for me. That was probably my favorite part.

And I'll say I loved Lucy Lawless as WW. She did a fantastic job!

It was good and well done. Other than Superman being useless, there really isnt anything glarringly wrong with it. But I just dont like that whole take/era of superheros, so it really didnt strike a cord with me. If you like that stuff though, this I guess would be your holy grail.

Even with all it's flaws, I'd take Superman/Doomsday any day of the week. And while this movie was good, its beyond me how anyone can think it even comes close to MOTP or ROTJ. It was good, but nothing mind-blowing, and at the end of the day, you have to really like the golden/silver age take on the JL, and you have to be nostalgic for that time period for it to really effect you. But its just uninteresting to me, and I feel it gives a really narrow view of things.

I would be very interested to know how NON-AMERICANS felt about this movie. Too partiotic? Too nationalistic? It was for me, and I'm an American.

 

[sleepydumbdude]

I liked it. Watched it in a group of 8 at my friends dorm. Only two of us read the comic and we were the only two that enjoyed it. I guess this one just isn't for everybody.

 

[theRedDeath]

I thought it was "okay".

The problem I have with this is by no means anyone's fault, it really is a phenomenal production, but It's just the nature of the beast in this case. My problem was that with SO many characters each trying to be given a fair amount of screen time and development, what you ultimately get is a lot of characters each doing very little.

There are characters that I like more than others, and everytime I see character's I like I want more of them, and everytime I see character's I only feel so-so about I want less of them. And that's going to be true for everyone who watches it, but with different character's being the favorites to each person. So there really is no solution here, that's just the way it goes.

This is why Justice League and JLU didn't always have the full seven in each episode, or only focused on three heroes at a time. Because you can only give so much emphasis on any given character in the time alloted. I think "New Frontier" really suffered from this.

Now don't get me wrong, when character's were featured, they did a splendid job. There were a lot of very small but very good snippets of character focus all through-out the movie. But for me, it just leaves me wanting more.

....

Having said that, I want to mention a few specific grievances I had. Superman punking out at the end was so lame. Didn't we already learn this lesson in Justice league season 1? We all know why you make Superman take a fall to make the bad guy look tough, we're ON TO the illusion, so still doing it at this point is intellectually insulting and a gross misuse of a beloved character. Just have him fly around in the background fighting dinosaurs if you want to remove him from the main action, don't just build him up then knock him out.

And the fact that, even briefly, we were supposed to think he was dead and watch Lois mourn him was very uninteresting and redundant considering this movie is coming right off the heels of Superman: Doomsday. Maybe in time it'll hold up better, but after watching them both so closely together it just feels tired and unnecessary.

A good movie all in all, but I prefer Superman: Doomsday, RotJ, and MotP over it by a large margin. I don't care about the upcoming Batman DtDVD, but I am very much so looking forward to more information about the animated Wonder Woman movie coming after that.

---

 

[GWOtaku]

I'm halfway done. This is....really cool. I know the characters but seeing them in this old era in a 1950's context is just SO interesting and adds a fresh angle to them. I'm inspired to go find the comics this comes from.

So far, I really like the take on the Flash. His first scene was really great, and so was his TV announcement after some feddies tried to snag him. Batman is deliciously distant and cryptic, I'm loving his interaction with Martian Manhunter. Wonder Woman's scene was good too. Brief, but good. I liked her "American Way" line in reaction to Superman.

Its all really good. I'm almost sorry this is a movie, because even though I'm not close to done I know I could easily watch many episodes of this.

 

[Gary L Thompson]

In case anyone is interested, this is the Detroit News' reaction:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080226/LIFESTYLE06/802260415/1043/LIFESTYLE06

 

[Hades]

Unlike Superman/Doomsday, this movie was down quite well. I have never read TNF yet, and now I really want to. It was great, the voices except Batman sounded perfect, and the designs were intriguing. Of course, I'm also curious to what was cut from the book.

Sadly though, Robin being there seemed to be pointless, as he did nothing.

I give the movie a 4.5/5 stars.

Now, when are we getting Judas Contract????

 

[Christo]

Very very strong movie.

First Impressions: They kept a lot intact, which I loved, but even so, the parts that were left out hurt a bit. It's kind of like the LOTR trilogy ... they did the best they could with what they were given. I just wish WB would allow them to have a little more time ... 10-15 minutes more would have made it feel so much less cramped. 75 minutes is just not enough time. But I said the same thing about Superman/Doomsday, so it seems this is the tack WB is going to take: despite the PG-13 rating, the movies will still be short due to kids' short attention spans.

I also think that this movie will not appeal to the younger crowd ... the emotional impact of it is rooted in a time long lost to this generation.

However, I gotta say I was blown away by the animation and the voice acting and I'm sure that if I hadn't read the original, this would've been a flawless effort. I don't think it could have been much better.

Off to watch it again!

 

[thedanmachine]

I didnt like it. I thought that the first half was really good, but at about the time Hal finally got the Lantern ring, I thought it got rushed and completely fell apart. Most of the characters I didnt care for.
A few specific things:

Martian Manhunter looked ridiculously stupid in his green form. He looked like someone had taken the Ethan Bennett character from The Batman, gave him wierd tights, and painted him green.

Superman did the corniest "America is a land of freedom so thats why we should get along" speech that Ive seen in a long time. Also Superman really never did anything throughout the entire movie besides save Hal in the beginning. He was just there, to stand by, and as mentioned earlier, give bad speeches.

As much as I like Batman, i didnt enjoy his portrayal here. The only thing I really liked about him was his line about how he could stop Superman and Manhunter.

The animation style just seemed kind of...standard. Nothing extraordinary.

I mean, it was ok. But nothing special.

 

[Knight]

I enjoyed the movie but I wasnt blown away. The different style was interesting but not really to my lacking. A good effort overall.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

I would be very interested to know how NON-AMERICANS felt about this movie. Too partiotic? Too nationalistic? It was for me, and I'm an American.

How can I word this without sounding bigoted? You're an American, but judging from your previous posts you're not that kind of American. The culture of that day was so vastly different from today that it might as well be two different countries. My dad is almost 70, and he laments the passing of "his America" almost ad nauseum. A modern American watching this movie is like an American reading nationalistic Victorian English literature. You have to disassociate from you're own views and look at it through the eyes of the time.

While there was a healthy amount of dissent and questioning of the government, I found the overall message and vibe of the film to be WAY too patriotic and nostalgic. To me, its just unsettling and alittle cheesy. For example, after the Korean War, its Vietnam, so I dont really like the idea of the JLA signing onboard for all that, you know? It kind of ruins the end of the movie for me, because u know whats coming.

LOL. I found it to be far TOO critical of the culture of the day, with unesscessary allusions to the real-life McCarthy and HUAC situations. References to Rosa Parks and stuff like that just seemed like blatent and pointless PC. Batman's microfilm lingered longer on Rosa Parks' name than King Faraday's name. Also getting the title from Kennedy annyoed me, as I'm not a very big fan of JFK or the rest of the Kennedy bunch (though RFK had his moments). I'm not saying I disagree ... I just don't like hearing it. It's like those anti-smoking ads that remind me that I really ought to quit. I know the ads are true and cigarettes are bad for me, but I still don't like being told to stop. It's easier to block it out and light up.

As for Vietnam, maybe it never happened in their universe. Situations would be a lot different with superheroes in the mix, especially organized ones.

I also felt Superman was wasted in it. Why did he have to be knocked out during the entire climax? Made his presense seem pointless.

Agreed.

I also LOVED GL's whole experience with killing. I thought that was the best scene in the movie, when he gave insight into that scene at the begining, about how he wouldnt kill the Koreans but would only kill to survive. It was like the big epiphany moment in the movie for me. That was probably my favorite part.

See, I found that cringe-worthy.

Even with all it's flaws, I'd take Superman/Doomsday any day of the week. And while this movie was good, its beyond me how anyone can think it even comes close to MOTP or ROTJ. It was good, but nothing mind-blowing, and at the end of the day, you have to really like the golden/silver age take on the JL, and you have to be nostalgic for that time period for it to really effect you. But its just uninteresting to me, and I feel it gives a really narrow view of things.

I suppose I like narrow. IMO, if the world was perfect it would all look like the 50s. I'm not saying it litterally should, but it would feel right to me. I suppose it's my own innate discomfort with cultures/religions/lifestyles/beliefs that are alien to me. I guess things like this appeal to me as it provides a love-letter to an era that really never was and never will be.

When people are nostaglic for the 50s or prior eras, they're usually not evil but just longing for the mythological idea of "old time America." Which even back then it never really existed. People today who don't fit into that All-American box see only the opression and conformity of the past, thus they are horrified as to why anyone would be nostalgic for that era. A recent poster on TZ was talking about the JL epside "Legends" and commented about how "ignorent and barbaric" people were back then.

What people need to understand is that the mythological 50s are like the mythological Old West. It bears resemblance to actual history, but is very whitewashed and altered until its almost a fantasy world and no more the United States than Narnia or Middle Earth is England.

That was part of my problem with the PC elements in New Frontier (movie and book). The rest of the movie was more or less set in a fantasy realm, but the PC references tainted the fantasy, which was supposed to be restored at the end of the movie. Knowing that the dark issues tainting the historical 50s/60s were also present in the New Frontier universe made it too much like reality to sell the flag-waving. IDK if that makes any sense at all.

Bottom line, this was an awesome DTV. It was better than Superman: Doomsday, but still too much like material already covered in JLU. It can't really top MOTP as my favorite.

 

[DerekPowers]

As for Vietnam, maybe it never happened in their universe. Situations would be a lot different with superheroes in the mix, especially organized ones.

Well, given all the real events/references in the film, itd make sense to assume it does happen. I just am bothered by things like that.

See, I found that cringe-worthy.

interesting. For me it was one of the most redeeming parts of the film. Without it, I'd like the movie a lot less. I thought that made Hal an admirable lead for the film...

I suppose I like narrow. IMO, if the world was perfect it would all look like the 50s. I'm not saying it litterally should, but it would feel right to me. I suppose it's my own innate discomfort with cultures/religions/lifestyles/beliefs that are alien to me. I guess things like this appeal to me as it provides a love-letter to an era that really never was and never will be.

Interesting, and very honest. See for me, that never felt right, because I'm a double-minority, so I find comfort in diversity and things that are alien. When I see something alien, I want to learn about it, not shut it out. Plus, the more aliens, the less one brand of alien sticks out, you know? The idea of 50s America really isnt comforting to me...

When people are nostaglic for the 50s or prior eras, they're usually not evil but just longing for the mythological idea of "old time America." Which even back then it never really existed. People today who don't fit into that All-American box see only the opression and conformity of the past, thus they are horrified as to why anyone would be nostalgic for that era. A recent poster on TZ was talking about the JL epside "Legends" and commented about how "ignorent and barbaric" people were back then.

Although I just said 50s america isnt comforting, I definately "get" the nostalgia for "old time America". But not when it comes to politics, which was basically what NF was about. Something like "The Iron Giant" is fine to me, and can be appealing on a certain level, but when you start incorporating war and government, thats when you loose me.

Knowing that the dark issues tainting the historical 50s/60s were also present in the New Frontier universe made it too much like reality to sell the flag-waving. IDK if that makes any sense at all.

Definately.

I thought it was good and well done, but it really didn't strike any cord or leave any kind of impression on me. I cant see myself re-watching it or running out to get the comic. I mean, maybe i'll rewatch it at some point, but like I said, its just not my cup of tea...

I'm still really curious to know how non-Americans feel about this film. Any people not from America out there reviewing this?....

 

[Comic Book Boy]

The problem we have here is the runtime.








They need to pick stories that fit in 75 minutes or make longer films. It's that simple.

THE NEW FRONTIER was okay, but they made too many sacrifices. There's no reason not to do a smaller story. Maybe I am biased because THE NEW FRONTIER graphic novel is my favorite Justice League story. It has the best portrayals of many of the characters.

 

[maxnugget]

I've never wanted so badly to praise a film and yet feel I have to do the exact opposite. This film was like a McDonald's meal in that I enjoyed every minute of it immensely, but felt completely unsatisfied and even regretful once it ended.

This film builds nicely in the first 2/3 but in the end ultimately fails on a dramatic level. The general storyline of the heroes overcoming differences, coming together, and battling some faceless superthreat...it should stand as a stark example of how...dramatically weak...this storyline concept is, that even a film that executes it so well still comes off as so underwhelming.

When I say it fails in the end, I specifically mean the payoff isn't there. Why? I think it's because the "payoff" is supposed to be that these characters are able to overcome their differences and divisions to join together for some greater good, and discover something about humanity in the process. In order for that to feel at all satisfying, you need to really, REALLY build up major frictions between the characters. The true antagonist of the story is not the Centre, but the friction between the protagonists, so, like any good villain, the inter-character friction needs to really feel insurmountable.

Fail to make the antagonist (the friction) a credible threat, and the result is the kind of weak story that we saw, for example, in "Secret Origins," or the Teen Titans (TV series) origin story, where the supposed divisions between the protagonists are totally uncompelling, almost to the point of feeling contrived, making the story enjoyable only on a "cool, lots of superheroes on screen together!" level and not on a true dramatic level. In the case of both of those stories though, the lack of dramatic weight was not a fatal flaw because the stories were part of a series of episodes and so it was less vital for them to be dramatically self-sufficient since they're part of a larger story arc.

Now "New Frontier" is without question more compelling in how it builds real friction between the characters than "Secret Origins" or Teen Titans, and, even without having read the comic, I can appreciate the cleverness of setting the story in the McCarthy era to make those frictions stronger, but, at least in this animated film, it's still not nearly enough to make the drama compelling.

I did love every other aspect of the film though. This was also my first time watching DC animation in high definition, and it looked fantastic.

I don't know how to rate this so I won't. Maybe I'm being too harsh on it. It's hard to know...I'm comparing the film against the high expectations I had for it. That's never a fair fight

 

[ROBOTRON]

- 3 stars

Pretty good, but the movie did not flow smoothly, it jumped from place to place and left me scratching my head several times. I was disappointed GL did not appear till the very end. I'll going to watch it again several times this week and I may upgrade/downgrade....but for right now it was just ok. The enemy was...like wth.

 

[R-Taco]

Saw a few clips of this movie, and I have to say, the character designs really turned me away. The have got to be some of the most uninspired ones I've seen in years.

 

[GWOtaku]

LOL. I found it to be far TOO critical of the culture of the day, with unesscessary allusions to the real-life McCarthy and HUAC situations. References to Rosa Parks and stuff like that just seemed like blatent and pointless PC. Batman's microfilm lingered longer on Rosa Parks' name than King Faraday's name. Also getting the title from Kennedy annyoed me, as I'm not a very big fan of JFK or the rest of the Kennedy bunch (though RFK had his moments). I'm not saying I disagree ... I just don't like hearing it. It's like those anti-smoking ads that remind me that I really ought to quit. I know the ads are true and cigarettes are bad for me, but I still don't like being told to stop. It's easier to block it out and light up.

That was part of my problem with the PC elements in New Frontier (movie and book). The rest of the movie was more or less set in a fantasy realm, but the PC references tainted the fantasy, which was supposed to be restored at the end of the movie. Knowing that the dark issues tainting the historical 50s/60s were also present in the New Frontier universe made it too much like reality to sell the flag-waving. IDK if that makes any sense at all.

I agree with most of your post, but I fundamentally disagree about that. Why do we have superheroes? To show us what to aspire to, to show us an ideal, to be an example, to show us what we can be. Yet without the reality, how do you enshrine the ideal?

As I see it, there was a stark choice between settling for reality or striving for something better. Barry Allen almost quits being the Flash in reaction to the times. Superman started off the movie basically urging Wonder Woman to play it safe but he is later encouraged by Lois to be a leader for America the ideal, which he takes to heart later. This key theme of the movie was best expressed when Martian Manhunter is depressed by humanity and wants to quit Earth and its problems by hitchhiking a ride back to Mars. Batman: "Enjoy the trip. Some of us don't have that luxury."

Just so. To head for a new frontier someone has to decide to blaze the trail, as the heroes did. If the movie had failed to touch on the issues of the times in addition to America the ideal, the imperative for the unification of the heroes and the very concept of a "new frontier" would have been lost. After all it's not really about the center bringing the heroes together, but why they stayed together.