"Justice League Dark: Apokolips War" Animated Release Talkback (Spoilers)

[Revelator]

If you have watched any of the interviews or behind the scenes videos, Bruce Timm is heavily involved in the creative development in these projects as is James Tucker. The directors follow their lead.

James Tucker is heavily involved in many of the most recent films because he's Executive Producer on them. Timm stepped away from being DC animation supervising producer in 2012. Since 2018, the only films he served as Executive Producer on were Superman: Red Son, Justice League vs the Fatal Five, and Gotham by Gaslight.

 

[drawangry]

James Tucker is heavily involved in many of the most recent films because he's Executive Producer on them. Timm stepped away from being DC animation supervising producer in 2012. Since 2018, the only films he served as Executive Producer on were Superman: Red Son, Justice League vs the Fatal Five, and Gotham by Gaslight.

Sorry for not being absolutely clear but yeah that's what I meant as far as division of projects. Both James and Bruce are creatively in charge of the ones they are associated with despite their EP titles.

 

[Yojimbo]

Just so we're clear Revelator, you know who drawangry is, right?

 

[Revelator]

I don't. Who is he?
Anyway, my original point was that of the three most recent DC films, Timm was only involved in significant capacity with Superman: Red Son.

 

[Yojimbo]

I don't. Who is he?

<cough><cough>He is Sam Liu.<cough><cough> Unless some wanker stole his social media handle.

 

[Revelator]

Good to know.

 

[drawangry]

I don't. Who is he?
Anyway, my original point was that of the three most recent DC films, Timm was only involved in significant capacity with Superman: Red Son.

Okay... To be even more specific, I am speaking to
"He does have an EP credit for Red Son, but that doesn't imply creative involvement."

I am saying he was the main creative force behind Red Son and every DTV movie he has been involved in. Despite his EP title.

<cough><cough>He is Sam Liu.<cough><cough> Unless some wanker stole his social media handle.

Haha it doesn't matter. I'm just trying to get the facts straight.

 

[b.t.]

Bruce Timm had very little to do with the film though. He's not even listed as an executive producer (James Tucker is). He does have an EP credit for Red Son, but that doesn't imply creative involvement. Mr. Timm is working on other projects.

I didn’t have ANY involvement in APOKOLIPS WAR but I was very much creatively involved in RED SON. I’ve had creative input on every DCU movie that lists me as a Producer or Executive Producer, in varying degrees, so I’ll take the blame or share the credit for any of those. On some movies I’ve taken a less active role and on others I’ve been way more ‘hands on’.

I only WISH I could take credit for James’ various excellent movies and TV series, but alas...

 

[Yojimbo]

Despite his EP title.

I think I might have asked James Tucker about this once because it seems like the difference between Executive Producer and Supervising Producer can be pretty minimal? I think the confusion comes when they see someone like Bruce Timm and also Sam Register have the same title of Executive Producer. Or to be on topic, here on Apokolips War, James Tucker has the title of Executive Producer instead of the previous title in past movies of Supervising Producer.

But really, it's all still the same, Tucker has always been creatively involved and overseeing/supervising these in-continuity movies just as Timm has always been creatively involved and overseeing/supervising the stand alone movies like Red Son and JL vs FF despite what word shows up in front of Producer, right?

 

[Revelator]

Okay... To be even more specific, I am speaking to "He does have an EP credit for Red Son, but that doesn't imply creative involvement."

I happily admit to that sentence being a complete mistake on my part. My intention was not to take any credit any from BT. I was originally responding to someone who disliked the last three DC animated films and blamed all three on "Bruce Timm and Co.," which struck me as inaccurate.

 

[drawangry]

I happily admit to that sentence being a complete mistake on my part. My intention was not to take any credit any from BT. I was originally responding to someone who disliked the last three DC animated films and blamed all three on "Bruce Timm and Co.," which struck me as inaccurate.

No no, I didn't take it like that at all. I was just trying to clarify since it is confusing and frankly, impossible to know. I try to do what I can to clarify because I oftentimes feel it's a little unfair where the credit is placed in tweets, discussions, reviews, write ups, what have you... Position titles become vague and can be misleading from director on up. Responsibilities can differ at different studios and even productions. On the DTVs, Bruce and James are the absolute heads of each of their respective projects creatively, from story inception to the final call in post.

And you are totallly correct about the last three movies. Love or hate, two of those were James' and his crew and, as BT said, one was his.

 

[-batmat-]

A little humor on the subject...


Personally I've always been confused by those types of credits. Someone getting a "produced by" credit seemed more important to me than "executive producer" which seemed like more of a desk position to me because of the name.

 

[Fone Bone]

Justice League Dark: Apokolips War

Hi, I'm Matt. I'll be your turd in the punchbowl this evening.

I suspect anyone who has read my reviews might have expected that. But it has nothing to do with the stomach-churning violence or f-bombs for once. It's that this movie is a total bummer and made me feel like all of the previous New 52 movies were an utter waste of my time.

As the movie was going I assumed I'd do a long review going over each of the wild new scenarios and how I responded to it (Evil Batman! Harley in charge of the Suicide Squad!). But ultimately this review will be briefer than I planned because none of that stuff actually matters.

I don't know about you, but I like happy, satisfying endings. Call me crazy. And if we do get a sad ending it needs to be earned. Killing off most of the cast and potentially destroying Earth is not earned as a sad ending as long as you plan to reboot the Universe. Is that how it's gonna go with every continuity? Misery and destruction for characters and scenarios we wind up caring about simply to reboot things to get out of it? Is that how the comic book DC Crises work? If so, I'm glad I don't read comics. That would freaking infuriate me. Rebooting the Universe is a deus ex machina of the highest order, and basically leaves us off on a sour note for a group of movies that had its ups and downs for sure, but I think deserved better than to have the last thing in it being the Justice League losing and Darkseid destroying Earth. Am I crazy for thinking that? This movie has 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. I don't get it. What am I missing? How is it an unearned unhappy cheat ending has resonated with so many fans and critics? I don't understand. I do not value or like or want the same thing as comic book fans do from my entertainment. And let me tell you, I don't think my wants and needs are unreasonable. And since Game of Thrones, pop culture hands us downer ending after downer ending and expects acclaim for it. Which people crazily give it. I don't operate that way. I don't want to operate that way. I think it's unhealthy to operate that way.

I don't know how many of y'all read my comic book, but if it comes out and is finished, it's gonna have a sad ending. And you'd love it because it's gonna be the kind of sad ending that makes you feel good for hurting. That movie I just saw made me feel bad. Why does pop culture believe that is the right way to deliver a sad ending? It's not just this movie, it's not just comic books. It's a toxic mindset that has infected fiction that makes everything markedly worse for existing. The U.S. is literally on-fire right now. I don't take much entertainment from a movie where the Earth is on-fire. There is nothing wrong for using entertainment to escape how horrible real-world events are. I should not have to be punished repeatedly with bummer endings from things I watch and like. I'm not the bad guy. None of us are. We didn't do anything wrong. We deserve better from our endings. And if not happier endings, than at least more satisfying, and more earned endings, and endings not using a reboot trope to cheat your way out of the dire corner the writers have painted themselves into.

I don't know what bothers me more. The movie itself, or the fact that it is highly regarded. There is something deeply wrong with popular culture. I remember back in the days where you could actually chill out and enjoy what you watched. And it's crazy to me that outside of maybe the Marvel Cinematic Universe, The Orville, and the She-Ra reboot, we aren't allowed to do that anymore. That movie was wrong, did wrong by the audience, and it disturbs me that it receives cheers for that. That sucked. *.

 

[-batmat-]

This movie has 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. I don't get it. What am I missing? How is it an unearned unhappy cheat ending has resonated with so many fans and critics? I don't understand.

I don't know what bothers me more. The movie itself, or the fact that it is highly regarded.

I feel EXACTLY the same way. Not to add to the negativity on the forum, but honesty before everything. The Watchtower Database uploading a video saying it was the best comic book movie of all time? 100% on RT? I got a text from a friend saying "Oh my god did you watch Apokolips War!? It was incredible!?" And I was like... "huh?" YouTube comments saying this was better than Infinity War and Endgame. Just insane to me.

I don't know, this universe never resonated with me so I guess that's why I never connected with it. But even if I had, this movie is just "kill everyone, delete everything from existence, the end" to me.

I don't mean to pretend to be in any high road, I enjoy many things that the general public considers to not be good, but I feel like there seems to be a lot of the audience out there that seems to be satisfied with just ticking a lot of boxes from a list.

"Suicide Squad is in it, The Titans are in it, there's a love story, there's violence, the Justice League is in it, Darkseid is in it, Trigon is in it, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!? IT HAS EVERYTHING!"

I don't usually would make these kind of comments, when I don't like something I just move on, it's not a big deal. But it's just incredible to me how something that I disliked so much is getting SUCH an overwhelming positive reception. Boggles my mind.

Anyway, sorry for the negativity. Just my two cents.

 

[#TeamMike]

Justice League Dark: Apokolips War

Hi, I'm Matt. I'll be your turd in the punchbowl this evening.

I suspect anyone who has read my reviews might have expected that. But it has nothing to do with the stomach-churning violence or f-bombs for once. It's that this movie is a total bummer and made me feel like all of the previous New 52 movies were an utter waste of my time.

As the movie was going I assumed I'd do a long review going over each of the wild new scenarios and how I responded to it (Evil Batman! Harley in charge of the Suicide Squad!). But ultimately this review will be briefer than I planned because none of that stuff actually matters.

I don't know about you, but I like happy, satisfying endings. Call me crazy. And if we do get a sad ending it needs to be earned. Killing off most of the cast and potentially destroying Earth is not earned as a sad ending as long as you plan to reboot the Universe. Is that how it's gonna go with every continuity? Misery and destruction for characters and scenarios we wind up caring about simply to reboot things to get out of it? Is that how the comic book DC Crises work? If so, I'm glad I don't read comics. That would freaking infuriate me. Rebooting the Universe is a deus ex machina of the highest order, and basically leaves us off on a sour note for a group of movies that had its ups and downs for sure, but I think deserved better than to have the last thing in it being the Justice League losing and Darkseid destroying Earth. Am I crazy for thinking that? This movie has 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. I don't get it. What am I missing? How is it an unearned unhappy cheat ending has resonated with so many fans and critics? I don't understand. I do not value or like or want the same thing as comic book fans do from my entertainment. And let me tell you, I don't think my wants and needs are unreasonable. And since Game of Thrones, pop culture hands us downer ending after downer ending and expects acclaim for it. Which people crazily give it. I don't operate that way. I don't want to operate that way. I think it's unhealthy to operate that way.

I don't know how many of y'all read my comic book, but if it comes out and is finished, it's gonna have a sad ending. And you'd love it because it's gonna be the kind of sad ending that makes you feel good for hurting. That movie I just saw made me feel bad. Why does pop culture believe that is the right way to deliver a sad ending? It's not just this movie, it's not just comic books. It's a toxic mindset that has infected fiction that makes everything markedly worse for existing. The U.S. is literally on-fire right now. I don't take much entertainment from a movie where the Earth is on-fire. There is nothing wrong for using entertainment to escape how horrible real-world events are. I should not have to be punished repeatedly with bummer endings from things I watch and like. I'm not the bad guy. None of us are. We didn't do anything wrong. We deserve better from our endings. And if not happier endings, than at least more satisfying, and more earned endings, and endings not using a reboot trope to cheat your way out of the dire corner the writers have painted themselves into.

I don't know what bothers me more. The movie itself, or the fact that it is highly regarded. There is something deeply wrong with popular culture. I remember back in the days where you could actually chill out and enjoy what you watched. And it's crazy to me that outside of maybe the Marvel Cinematic Universe, The Orville, and the She-Ra reboot, we aren't allowed to do that anymore. That movie was wrong, did wrong by the audience, and it disturbs me that it receives cheers for that. That sucked. *.

I knew you would hate this one lol.

The problem with the ending (aside from it being a cop out) is we don't actually see the final result. If you're going to change the past, we as the audience need to see how it turns out.

Imagine in the Flashpoint Paradox if the film had ended with Flash going back in time.... and then cut to credits. It would be completely unsatisfying.

 

[Yojimbo]

You guys must have hated the last scene in Batman: The Brave and The Bold since it's essentially the same way Apokolips War ends. And seems like how Tucker ends all his long standing continuities.

Flashpoint Paradox didn't end a continuity that lasted several years so I don't quite agree with that comparison.

 

[Mostezli]

From what I understand this entire continuity has been built on the remnant of the yet to be dead Reverse Flash's.
In Flashpoint Paradox, we're led to believe Barry went back to his original world with some costume changes.
In Justice League War, everyone's meeting each other for the very first time.

 

[-batmat-]

You guys must have hated the last scene in Batman: The Brave and The Bold since it's essentially the same way Apokolips War ends. And seems like how Tucker ends all his long standing continuities.

I can't say about that one since I didn't watch that series other than a handful of episodes.

Flashpoint Paradox didn't end a continuity that lasted several years so I don't quite agree with that comparison.

...that's even worse!! The comparison is valid just talking about the movie. Like if Marty McFly went back to 1985 with the DeLorean and the credits rolled when the DeLorean dissapeared and we didn't get to see the fixed timeline. Same thing. And having it be the finale of a 15 or so movie universe... even worse!

 

[Yojimbo]

From what I understand this entire continuity has been built on the remnant of the yet to be dead Reverse Flash's.
In Flashpoint Paradox, we're led to believe Barry went back to his original world with some costume changes.
In Justice League War, everyone's meeting each other for the very first time.

Basically. It's a branch timeline.

Timeline Prime existed.

Flash changed Timeline Prime into Timeline Flashpoint by saving his mother.

Flash created a branch timeline when he went back to stop himself that created a rebooted version of Timeline Prime or totally restored Timeline Prime but also a second timeline running in parallel which are these movies. Insert science talk about entropy, space time, physics and fake science like temporal mitosis.

Reverse Flash vibrated to the new timeline, yes. But as seconds passed as Timeline Flashpoint vanished due to Flash going back to stop himself, time moved faster in the new timeline. He was living on borrowed time to get the relic to cheat going to hell before the Timeline Flashpoint ended and was fully replaced with the new timeline. Think of it as sand moving from one side of the hourglass to the other. Reverse Flash was a beetle that dug his way to the other side and tried to find a way out but didn't and got buried to death.

Due to their abilities, both were able to remember the one or two of the other timelines while in the new timeline. Flash and probably Reverse Flash will remember something eventually in the new new timeline.

...that's even worse!! The comparison is valid just talking about the movie. Like if Marty McFly went back to 1985 with the DeLorean and the credits rolled when the DeLorean dissapeared and we didn't get to see the fixed timeline. Same thing. And having it be the finale of a 15 or so movie universe... even worse!

Ok, both of your examples, the endings hinged on seeing the new timeline. The ending for this movie doesn't hinge on seeing the new timeline like TFP or the first BTTF, imo. The ending hinged on characters like Superman, Raven, and Constantine gaining redemption and closure.

They probably have made the decision to allow the new supervising producer to debut the new timeline rather than Tucker in an epilogue in this movie. Man of Tomorrow could be the first of the new timeline for all we know.

 

[Fone Bone]

You guys must have hated the last scene in Batman: The Brave and The Bold since it's essentially the same way Apokolips War ends. And seems like how Tucker ends all his long standing continuities.

The last scene in Batman: The Brave And The Bold was Batman looking into the camera and telling the kids at home upset about the series ending that Batman will always be out there fighting crime for them. How you can compare something so bittersweet and perfect to the horrific thing I just saw is beyond me.