JLU too adult oriented?

[Animelee]

As a collector of G-rated-only series, comics, movies, and games, I do include all DC Animated Universe series in my collection. Of course, I'm a little hesitant to get any DVDs with that episode where Harley asks Joker if he'd like to ride his Harley, and if she would like to taste his pie... Sad, but true... My collection will probably never be complete because of those two lines...

There are things that my ten-year-old brother picked up, as he watches all the shows I watch:

"Do you still snore?"

Other than that, I can't really see anything as being even the least bit PG-rated. John and Shayera kissing? How is that bad? They were just kissing! I'm an atheist, so I'm not sure about this, but don't Southern Baptist/Evangelist/Pentacostal Christians kiss in front of their kids, too? When I used to go to a Pentacostal church when I was younger, they did! Don't they kiss eachother in movies like Ben-Hur and The Ten Commandments? I don't see what's wrong with that!

The "Playboy Mansion". You guys know that show Jimmy Neutron? Well ya should, it's fairly popular. Anyways, there was an episode where Jimmy transformed his lab into a replica of Hugh Heffner's room, by telling his computer to use the "Hef theme". Then he brought Cindy over, and starting hitting on her. It was fairly cute, but he wasn't trying to get her to have sex with him -- he just wanted her to hold his hand and be his girlfriend, all while blowing a pipe o' bubbles and wearing a furry purple robe with his hair combed back. No one complained, but when it happens in Justice League, for some reason, people do.

And that so-called harem in "Secret Society", well, was that a harem, or was he just keeping the women locked up and dressed like that to demean them even more than they already are being demeaned?

And John browsing through Vixen's modeling outfits -- how was that red two-piece bikini bad? Don't families go to the beach together? Don't mothers dress in two-piece bikinis in front of their little boys at the beach? Aren't little boys exposed to young women in two-piece bikinis at the beach? I don't see what was wrong with that, either. I mean, she's a model, and she's going to model summerwear, so...?

And I agree with b.t., the shows they try to pass of on all the networks as "family time" during primetime hours -- I don't get it! I mean, Everybody Loves Raymond won an award from some "Family Show" awards. How can episodes such as "Angry Sex" pass off as family entertainment?! Even the show Complete Savages, with hardcore Catholic Mel Gibson as an executive producer, has an episode where the three oldest boys start working at a lingere store. Three teenaged boys... at a lingere store... imagine the kinds of jokes you get in an episode like that! And that's what families are watching together! Yet when John and Shayera kissed, as all parents do in front of their children, Mr. McDuffie got a ton of e-mails from angry parents asking how they could "show such things to children?!".

This post is not directed towards anyone in particular, I'm just voicing my opinions.

 

[Master Moron]

I don't see why people are complaining about the sex. I'd be more concerned about the violence. I imagine a kid would freak out seeing Solomon Grundy kill those kids, or seeing those robots eat those hikers. I still don't understand why so many people freak out over sex and don't seem to notice the violence at all. Not to say that they should cut down on the violence, I'm just saying if I was a kid that would freak me out way more than the sex. Hell, Solomon Grundy punching his hand through that door and grabbing that kid's head freaked me out as an adult.

 

[Wesyeed]

JLU doesnt seem overly violent or over sexual to me. If I were a kid again and saw that scene from Fearful symmetry where some guy points his gun scope at Supergirl's breasts, I wouldn't have thought anything of it. Nor the bikini, or bra and panties hanging on a wire. Kids probably see that all the time if they go to the clothes store and GL was just checking the quality of the fabric. Big deal. JlU hasn't done anythine I'd consider over the top. People die when big things crush them... kids dont know this?

 

[DerekPowers]

No. JLU is NOT too adult oriented. Infact, i see it as more kid-friendly than JL.

I worked as a day-camp counselor this past summer, and my kids were 10-11. And JLU was just starting to air new episodes. I asked my kids, which is better, JL or JLU? and what did they say? JLU ofcourse. I asked why? they said "more heros". So there ya go. They like the eye candy.

I personally like the eye candy too. I dont like the writing or format nearly as much as JL, BUT i have been very interested in how JLU operates optically on the viewer. I dont want to get into it too much, because I havent put my finger on it quite yet, but I'm starting to think JLU operates like an abstract painting or something. It operates on a different level than any of the past DCAU shows, i'm starting to think. There is just SOMETHING about the shots that have all these heros together, all these beautiful designs. Simple shapes, bold colors, and lots of it. JLU seems to be about more being less somehow. Hmmm, all i know is that the one thing i truely love about the show is the shots with all the heros. Optically, its like nothing i've ever seen in the DCAU (even if i have a problem w/ the story, character development, dialogue, etc). It operates like a painting more so than any other dcau show, imo.

And we all know kids respond to shapes and colors. And i suppose adults do too, cause i sure as hell do.

Another reason its not too adult is for the simple fact that the writing and stories and character development isnt nearly as sophisticated as the past DCAu shows.

I understand what your saying though Dusty. I think in episodes like "Hearts and Minds", there was some TOTALLY FORCED dialogue, kind of pandering to adults, making just out-of-place adult comments, it just made me krindge. It's happened in other episodes, but im tired right now so i cant think of them.

The trick is to write good, timeless stories. BTAS is the perfect example. Adults and children all respond to the same things, when it comes right down to it. The way adults and kids can equally enjoy BTAS, I think shows that it can be done. BTAS never had forced adult dialogue the way JL often did. It never dumbed down it's stories for kids. It just was what it was, a work of art, period. And art is age-less. It speaks to everyone and anyone, perhaps for different reasons, but it ellicites responses across the board.

Two great examples of inuendo and not being too "adult" for the kiddies is the STAS eps "A little piece of Home" and "the Way of All Flesh". Both had Great stories. Great writing. Great action. And LOTS of inuendo in the dialogue. The way of all Flesh had sexual inuendo and ALPOH had killing inuendo, but both were wieved so beautifully into the stories and characters that it didnt seem forced, it seemed natural, and since it was just emphasising certain themes inherent in the stories, themes the viewer themselves were probably thinking about, many might have missed them but absorbed them through the overall experience of watching the episode, if that makes any sense.

anyway, is JLU too adult, hell no. and thats ok, because kids have every right, if not MORE of a right, to enjoy these shows, than adults do (hey, i got hooked on btas as a kid, so). BUT, imo, it doesnt have the same range as BTAS/TNBA and STAS (even BB and JL season 2) had, the ability to appeal to both adults and kids equally, without pandering to either, but rather, simply by operating as all great art does, by simply being what it is and letting the audience embrace it on their own.

god, i really can rant on and on and on about this stuff, and the sad thing is, its really late here and i'm tired, that this probably isnt making much sense. peace.

 

[Thorn]

If I were a kid again and saw that scene from Fearful symmetry where some guy points his gun scope at Supergirl's breasts, I wouldn't have thought anything of it.

Er..neither would I, since her heart is what he's aiming at. I don't know about you, but I keep my heart in my chest.

 

[FunTurtle]

Hmmm...it would be interesting to see a show of hands of the people here who LIKED This Little Piggy and Kids Stuff. For some reason there is a seething HATE of these episodes across the board. What happened to making fun of the episodes that deserve it? War World? Hawk n Dove? Did you guys completely block these stinkers from your memory?
Actually, Hawk and Dove did the show a service. It made War World actually watchable again. At least fighting was ALLOWED in that one.
Oh the topic...right.
JLU isn't hurting anybody. If you're experienced enough in life to pick up the hints of sexuality or violence it lets on, then you've obviously already picked it up elsewhere, most likely in a more obvious or brutal fashion.
As for the techno babble in Dark Heart, I don't think that was the show trying to be "scientific" or making up stuff just for the sake of it. They were just showing how the Atom was really into that kind of thing. It's just in his character to act like a kid at Wizard World when he sees technology like that.
I don't see why there are complaints about sexuality anyway. It rocks For those of you on that side of things, do yourself a favor, and pick up the Batman: Dangerous Dames and Demons tradepaperback...theres some fun little sketches of Harley and Barbara Gordon you'll be interested to see. Heck, while you're at it, pick up that Modern Masters 3 thing and check out the art gallery in the back. And as for b.t., let the man do his thing, because he's doing it right and hasn't personally let me down in ....oh, going on 13 years I think. ...Unless he had a hand in that BTAS "Terrible Trio" episode...that was just uncomfortable.

 

[Wesyeed]

Oh I have a dirty mind...

 

[I.R Joey]

Interesting points everyone, I'm enjoying this discussion.

Just curious when did Dwayne Mcduffie say that he got letters from people over the end of WildCards??? I'm not saying that he didn't but a link or something would be nice.

 

[samuraijason]

I can see this topic is winding down but here's my two cents

1. I think innuendo is a good way to keep adults interested while still maintaining a kiddie show. Think Shrek. A cartoon movie basically for kids that would bombard you with in-jokes that no 8 year old would get.

2. I do think that well written innuendo is far more entertaining than saying anything out right. The example I always think of is (old age alert!) in the movie The Big Sleep with Bogart when him and Bacall are talking about horses and how he likes start slow and come on strong from the rear. Their verbal dancing is far more fun than having things thrown right in your face.

3. I agree that JLU has been skewed more to a younger audience than JL. A faster paced show with more characters definitely appeals to a younger audience. Like Teen Titans minus the seizure risk.

 

[ClockStomper]

I'd have to disagree with Matt about Batman Beyond Season 1. The focus was mostly on Terry interacting with Bruce, his school life got very little focus outside of "Golem", and the story of that episode was dark and relatable primarily to those who'd been through High School.

Season 2 turned the show into typical Kids WB schlock, adding characters like Max, putting more focus on Dana and Nelson Nash, and putting out episodes like "Egg Baby" that pandered to kids. (I'm not bashing, Season 3 was a return to form, "Out of the Past" was one of the best episodes of any of the series'.)

Case in point, the darker season did better than one that was supposedly more "kid friendly". Dumbing things down for kids is only hurtful in the end, that's why they turn to anime. Teen Titans probably does so well because, while stylized, it shows a lot of action-violence.

 

[Crow]

Very thought-provoking discussion here ladies and gents. Thanks for the good read.

 

[Captain Clown]

Whenever I see a discussion about keeping things on a level the kids can understand and will be entertained by, I remember the fact that I started watching B:TAS when I was about ten. That's probably still the most "serious" of the DCAU shows if not the most risque. But believe you me, I wasn't crying out for Batman to start using hip slang or anything like that.

 

[Duke Psychology]

Very thought-provoking discussion here ladies and gents. Thanks for the good read.

yeah, it's one of the better threads lately.

 

[Master Moron]

Hmmm...it would be interesting to see a show of hands of the people here who LIKED This Little Piggy and Kids Stuff. For some reason there is a seething HATE of these episodes across the board. What happened to making fun of the episodes that deserve it? War World? Hawk n Dove?

Interesting...I liked Hawk and Dove and War World, but hated the Little Piggy and Kids Stuff episodes.

 

[Supernovametalstar]

i know tv is supposed to be bad for you, but i remember rushing to my world book encyclopedia immediately after seeing the pirate dream sequence on GILLIGAN'S ISLAND, to find out more about pirates....

I thought I was the only geek to read encyclopedias for fun when I was younger .

I feel that JLU is trying to strike a mix between giving the audience more adult stories (or at least mix in more intrigue than the basic evil guy trying to steal stuff or take over the city/world/galaxy/universe), and the fun action fighting that we get from above mentioned example. I personally liked the multi-part format better if only because this single episode approach can't squeeze in enough of the new characters to make me care for them too much and you don't see as much of the older characters from JL for my liking.

 

[Fone Bone]

I do not expect this at all. Justice League will have had over 104 total episodes, the highest episode count of any show on Cartoon Network in its 12 year history. They will have so much to strip to weeknights that it is very very unlikely that JLU will evolve into yet another series. The Powerpuff Girls, a show Cartoon Network said they would NEVER cancel as long as McCracken wanted to keep making it, got cancelled (and worse, they won't let McCracken END it). The only shows giving JLU any competition are Kids Next Door which will make a run for at least 78 episodes so far, and Space Ghost with a total in the upper 80s. And Space Ghost looks to be finished, and with Mo Willems leaving Kids Next Door, that show's future looks hazy as well.

What I -DO- expect is that CN will hang on to Bruce Timm for as long as they can. First of all, it seems only natural that a show highlighting other DC Universe heroes, sets up prime opportunities for SPINOFFS. Secondly, I think CN respects Timm too much to let him just fade out. He's up there with Genndy and McCracken on their list. I don't think Timm's fate is very horrible. Even if he doesn't work for WBA after JLU, Cartoon Network Studios could possibly take him on themselves, and produce ORIGINAL content. How cool would it be for Timm to create a brand new superhero universe, completely distant from the comic book giants? I'm not saying it's gonna happen and I'm not speaking on behalf of Timm but... I think a LOT of things would have to go down for Bruce Timm not to still have a powerful career after this show.

Here's the thing Matt: JL already HAS 52 episodes ready made for daily stripping and CN ISN'T using them. I would love to see a spin-off but considering that CN considers JLU a whole different show (the lack of JL reruns points to that) I wouldn't be surprised to see another series relaunch (JLU Beyond perhaps?)

 

[bat313]

I just remeber being disapointed with the episode where Flash went to the video store and rented "girls gone Wild!" I remeber thinking to myself "why did he run out without paying?".........

The only ep worse then that was where GL went to the strip club, but forgot to bring singles. it was a good lesson for kids though, illustrating the importants of having cash on you and not always relying on your debit card. I'm always falling victum to having no cash on me

 

[Teo]

Hmmm...it would be interesting to see a show of hands of the people here who LIKED This Little Piggy and Kids Stuff. For some reason there is a seething HATE of these episodes across the board. What happened to making fun of the episodes that deserve it? War World? Hawk n Dove? Did you guys completely block these stinkers from your memory?

Kid's Stuff is easily one of the best shows in JLU and is in the top 25 of DCAU shows IMO. The animation was brilliant and the story felt very complete in just 22 minutes. Little Piggy, I can take or leave, although I think much of its hate comes from timing; maybe too much Batman and Diana and comedy to close to other comedy shows. War World hatred baffles me more than anything because it makes no serious errors that other episodes haven't made, many of them more severely. Hawk and Dove was maybe heavy handed, but Diana in street clothes can save nearly any episode.

And of course the show isn't too mature. It's just the right amount of mature, but it's mature in the presentation and intellectual sense. The writing may include light innuendo but never becomes vulgar. Old radio series like The Shadow or Lights Out dealt with mature subject matter (like revenge, murder, and the supernormal) and managed to entertain children and adults. DCAU shows for the most part carry this same quality. While I don't think children need to be exposed much of the base, "adult" content created, dumbed-down, kid-friendly content is also quite offensive (Superfriends is kitschy now, but if a new show had that same dialogue, it'd be insulting!).

---
Gunnm

 

[dpm07]

Personally, I think B.T and his supporting cast have done an excellent job at the work on their Animated products such as JL and JLU. I think the show's greatest strength is that it does cater to all demographics, and isn't lame like the Superfriends of the '70's was.

I teach Cultural Diversity and a Career Seminar at the University level, and I use these shows as well as certain episodes from STAS. One thing the students always comment on is how well-written this programming is, and the fact that makes it so well presented is that people of various ages are able to tune in and get it. The kids like the animation, and the adults get the inside liners which I think is great. You can apply the concepts and really get the point across in a great way.

So, keep up the good work B.T. You and your supporting cast are truly a credit to your industry. Now, having said that, I hope you have a really great story put in place with Captain Marvel, and he gets the respect he deserves next season.

 

[Style]

Is "adult content" in the DCAU really a new concern? I mean, thinking back on all of the material, probably the most explicit refereces to sexuality were in "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" circa 1993. It leaves very little room to doubt what happened between Bruce and Andi after she saved him from the Wrath of Bullock.

Personally, if I were a parent, I might be a little miffed at having to explain that seen to an eight year old...

"You see, Billy, Andrea slept in one of the Wayne Manor geust rooms, but her clothes were dirty, and since Bruce didn't have in spare girl clothes in the house Alfred let her wear one of Bruce's shirts, but they didn't have any pants that fit her, and she snuck into Bruce's room before he woke up because she liked the view, and well, uh..."

Ofcourse, Mask of the Phantasm slides because it was a theatrical movie, and they never tried to chop it up into series episodes. As for what's aired, I don't think there's been anything too objectionable.

EDIT: And personally, I don't think Teen Titans has been entirely innocent in this regard either. C'mon, in Spellbound, what do you think was the first thing that popped into Beastboy's head after he heard a male voice coming from Raven's room early in the morning? And she was giggling no less, which isn't a common thing for Raven either...