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Randy H

"Greatest Adventure" Fan
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jjwspider,

Thanks for the reply. I have a couple of differences though... LMK what you think. :)

You said:
"I believe that within the story the king was able to hide the crystal because of his bloodline, virtually it obeys the king. "

If this is correct, why then does the crystal merge with (and eventually absorb/destroy) the Queen, and the Princess (also a member of the King's bloodline), but not the King himself? The King himself said it was too powerful for him to control, thus the need for hiding it in the first place.


"While the crystal may be all powerful it has no physical way of defending itself - sort of like an omnipotent presence if you will, this could be the possible reason for needing a human host. "

Actually, I'd have to disagree. The film (and other related materials, I.e. the Illustrated Script) show pretty clearly that it was the creystal which chose its host, rather than the otehr way around. When it chooses its hosts, it then compells them (as it did in the cases of both the Queen and Kida) to merge with it- not the other way around. This process eventually destroys the hosts. This being the case, I'd say the crystal has a pretty sure way of defending itself. It displayed this ability when it destroyed Rourke in the climax of the film.



"Another factor here was that due to Kida's bloodline she had control of the diamond (to a certain point). In order to save the one she loves (Milo) she bonds with the crystal and goes with Rycliffe - love makes people do crazy things and she knew that Milo would be killed if she didn't go with the General. "


Again, we have to examine the bloodline issue. If the King's bloodline could control the crystal, why was it hidden in the first place? Were that the case, if it swallowed the King's daughter, he could have commanded her release.

Also, I would ask you to watch the film more closely next time. It clearly shows that theCrystal chose Kida and her mother, not the other way around. The crystal spoke through Kida to Milo, and it pulled her in. She wasn't given a choice.

And to make it worse, the crystal was utterly unreachable for Rourke in the cave. It's about a mile up, hovering in the air, a massive ball of fiery gas and crystal, and it's hovering over a basically bottomless pit. Why does it need to defend itself. The only way Rourke gets anywhere close to that crystal is if it comes down on its own. The only way he could capture it is to have it compacted into a human's body. Thus the crystal stupidly plays directly into his hands, as oppsed to defending itself. If it stays put, there's no problem.


All this is only meant as friendly discussion. I'm not trying to come across as rude or anything, so let me apologize in advance if the message came off that way. It wasn't meant to. :)

I think your idea of the crystal's function is probably very similar to that of the filmmakers. I'm just saying the logic of it is flawed.

That said I'm still planning to buy the movie. I thought it was really entertaining. I'm just wondering why Kida brought the bracelet back instead of Mom...... I guess the crystal had more trouble digesting it...... :)

Later,
Randy H
 
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Joe Wagner

The one, true Scarlet Spider!
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Originally posted by Randy H
jjwspider,

Thanks for the reply. I have a couple of differences though... LMK what you think. :)

You said:
"I believe that within the story the king was able to hide the crystal because of his bloodline, virtually it obeys the king. "

If this is correct, why then does the crystal merge with (and eventually absorb/destroy) the Queen, and the Princess (also a member of the King's bloodline), but not the King himself? The King himself said it was too powerful for him to control, thus the need for hiding it in the first place.


"While the crystal may be all powerful it has no physical way of defending itself - sort of like an omnipotent presence if you will, this could be the possible reason for needing a human host. "

Actually, I'd have to disagree. The film (and other related materials, I.e. the Illustrated Script) show pretty clearly that it was the creystal which chose its host, rather than the otehr way around. When it chooses its hosts, it then compells them (as it did in the cases of both the Queen and Kida) to merge with it- not the other way around. This process eventually destroys the hosts. This being the case, I'd say the crystal has a pretty sure way of defending itself. It displayed this ability when it destroyed Rourke in the climax of the film.

Sorry if this didn't come out as clear as I would have liked - what I was basically saying was that the crystal did choose the host. Once again I apologize if something I said before made it look like they choose the crystal and not the other way around. After having thought about it more the bloodline idea doesn't really work - based upon the points that you made earlier. It might make more sense if it was the female lineage of rulers - notice that everyone that was choosen was either a queen or a princess. Also I don't think that the crystal chooses to defend itself per se but is more of a defense mechanism for the entire city. The reason Kida's mother dies is, like you said, no one vessel can contain such power for such a long length of time. As she was expelling large amounts of power in order to effectively 'protect' Atlantis from the outside world her body deteriorated in the process. This would kind of go back to my idea of the crystal being a sentinent being, but without any form of protection (if I remember right Rourke was actually touched by the crystal before he got changed, meaning that the crystal can only defend itself through physical contact or close range attacks - obviously it can't do anything if it's floating way above a pond).

I still think that Kida had some control even when she was in crystal form. Either that or the crystal left in order to protect the city from certain slaughter - knowing, or hoping, that the city would come to its rescue. As for how the king can control the crystal (or not control it, as the case may be) I believe that the crystal had made similair pacts with the previous kings - maybe they are given a limited amount of control over the crystal because they are in charge of the city. The crystal probably choose the kings bloodline for a reason (maybe strong leadership, etc) but every deal has a price. Maybe the first king could have made a pact with the crystal for a limited amount of control over the crystal (earning the citizens respect) in exchange for the female royalty being used by the crystal in times of crisis. I don't know, this is all purely speculation on my part for the crystals motivation of who it picks, altho a limited amount of control would explain how the king could have moved the crystal but yet still feared that it would take his daughter away from him. LMK what you think.

-Joe
 

Randy H

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jjwspider,

Thanks again for the reply.

You mentioned that, " In order to save the one she loves (Milo) she bonds with the crystal and goes with Rycliffe " , so that's what seemed to say that you thought Kida chose the crystal. At least that's what made *me* think that. :)

As for the idea that one being cannot contain that much power for so long, it definitely makes some sense. However, it wasn't explained in the film. Also, I'd again bring up the bracelet thing. If the bracelet is still intact, why isn't the Queen? Moreover, if Kida could release herself, why couldn't the Queen? It just doesn't make sense.

While you're right that Rourke wasn't injured until he touched the crystal, Kida was sucked in by the crystal. Physically pulled into it. Why couldn't it just pull Rourke instead? It would eventually destroy him, and he'd be no danger to the crystal. The point of the crystal taking a host was always stated as a method of defending itself, not Atlantis.

The King mentions that the crystal's power was too great to control- that he had tried to mis-use it, bringing destruction on Atlantis. The books flesh this out a bit more, saying that the King was attacking other nations using the crystal, when the crystal went out of control, and basically backfired, causing the tidal wave in the opening sequence. If it's true that the Crystal can create nuclear-like explosions (as seen in the film's opening shots), then it definitely has a sure-fire way of defending itself, even from great distances. I'd say Rourke is an easy target.

Some of what you're saying makes sense, but it's just not in the movie. To me, it just points out that the filmmakers either didn't understand the crystal themselves, or that the idea of the crystal is in itself flawed. Either way, no logical explanation for the crystal, its powers, its choices, or really anything related to it, made it into the movie. That's my only point. It's not that the crystal is necessarily a bad idea, but it contradicted itself too much. It lets Kida go, but not the Queen, can fire atomic blasts of energy, but can't defend itself, etc. It's just not very well thought out.

LMK what you think.

Later,
Randy H
 

Joe Wagner

The one, true Scarlet Spider!
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Oh a good ol' fashioned debate :D . Granted I've never gotten to read the books so the I didn't know all that much about the king misusing the crystals power - altho that would mean he did have some power over the crystal. Hmmm...as for the bracelet - wasn't it made up of the same material as the crystal, making it much more durable than say, human flesh? Another thing that could make the crystal even more interesting is if it offers it participants a choice - could it be possible that the crystal offers it's own little glimpse of heaven for the sacrifices of the one's it choses? Maybe her mother didn't have the strength to go back to Atlantis (watch some of the recent Buffy eps for this, granted she had responsibilities but the warmth of heaven was strong and she didn't want to come back). Maybe after she was taken in the crystal she saw her mother but couldn't stay with her, instead wishing to return to Milo and Atlantis, taking the bracelet with her. This would kind of tend to explain why Kida came back and her mother didn't. Also the two releasings were for two different reason - one as a punishment, the other as more of a reward (the rising of Atlantis). Altho the crystal is capable of nuclear like explosions it is possible that it can only react, much like it reacted upon the kings misuse thru a host to sink Atlantis it may need to be attacked itself before it can retaliate (remember it's disney, there would have to be some morality of the crystal). Just because it was misused does not necessarily mean that is the way it wants to act, instead sending a signal to the king that his attacks will not be taken.

LMK what you think as these are just some possibilities that seem to running around in my head.

-Joe
 

Randy H

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jjwspider,

Again, I have to say you've got some interesting ideas. However, few-to-none of them are actually in the movie.

"Granted I've never gotten to read the books so the I didn't know all that much about the king misusing the crystals power - altho that would mean he did have some power over the crystal. "

Right, he would have to have to have some way of using it, but it's inconsistent to say he can use it to attack other nations but not be able to free his wife. Also, how is it that he can use it, but not be sucked into it? This just isn't explained.

"Hmmm...as for the bracelet - wasn't it made up of the same material as the crystal, "

As far as I know, the bracelet was simply that: a bracelet. The crystal Kida wore was on her necklace, not her bracelet, and the bracelet wasn't colored or textured in any way similar to the crystal. It was a flat, pastel sky blue color, with red beads, as opposed to the crystal pieces the Atlanteans wore, which were glassy in terms of texture.

"Another thing that could make the crystal even more interesting is if it offers it participants a choice - could it be possible that the crystal offers it's own little glimpse of heaven for the sacrifices of the one's it choses? Maybe her mother didn't have the strength to go back to Atlantis (watch some of the recent Buffy eps for this, granted she had responsibilities but the warmth of heaven was strong and she didn't want to come back). Maybe after she was taken in the crystal she saw her mother but couldn't stay with her, instead wishing to return to Milo and Atlantis, taking the bracelet with her. This would kind of tend to explain why Kida came back and her mother didn't. "

Interesting ideas, jjw, but again they aren't in the film. I could probably write a pretty convincing story around the same basic elements, maybe even incorporating some of your ideas, but that doesn't put them in the film. Not only are these ideas not in the film, they contradict what you said earlier, about the bracelet being more durable than the humans. Either one of those ideas could be possible by themselves, but they can't coexist.


Altho the crystal is capable of nuclear like explosions it is possible that it can only react, much like it reacted upon the kings misuse thru a host to sink Atlantis it may need to be attacked itself before it can retaliate (remember it's disney, there would have to be some morality of the crystal)

If the King was misusing it to attack, it's not simply reacting. There's no evidence of the King having used a host to control the crystal, as the Queen was chosen after the misuse had occurred and Atlantis was already in danger. And remember, there is no evidence of any specific action being taken by the host that isn't compelled by the crystal itself. There's no evidence that the hosts are even aware of what they're doing.

It doesn't seem to me that the sinking of the island was a retaliation on the part of the crystal. Rather that the King's lack of knowledge of it caused him to misfire it. The material I've read seems to suggest that the sinking was caused by an unexpected backlash.

Say the King incinerates a nearby island with the crystal: he may not have realized that a tidal wave would occur, overtaking Atlantis in the process. An explosion like that could have shook the foundations of all the nearby islands, which could've caused Atlantis to sink. Now this IS conjecture, but the information available in regards to the movie seems to suggest that something like this was the case, rather than the crystal deciding to punish Atlantis.

Again, I appreciate your ideas, jjw- LMK what you think of mine.

Maybe we should move this good old fashioned debate over to its own thread, though..... :D

Later,
Randy H
 

Joe Wagner

The one, true Scarlet Spider!
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The reason I had a couple of contradictory ideas was I was basically thinking outloud and trying to list some possibilities for what could have happened. Granted none them are in the movie, it was just merely speculation on my part as to some ideas that could have been used to cause Atlantis to sink. I just had another idea but I think I'll post it a little later.

We could create a new thread- say the official Atlantis debate thread?

I guess I'll see you there! :D

-Joe
 

Randy H

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Cool, jjw... Sorry if my reply came off harsh.

See you in Atlantis!

Later,
Randy H
P.S. I like the new avatar!
 

John-Paul

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