C&C - Dragon Ball Super - "Accelerating Tragedy - Vanishing Universes" [7/6]

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Neo Ultra Mike

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And so Gohan, this person whom U6 haven’t met in the initial Tournament, barely knew at the Baseball game, and probably wasn’t given much info about in the 48 hours before the Tournament, will probably be viewed as their harbinger of doom by Universe 6.
To be fair even with the fusion of all the other various Namekians, Pilina and Saonel still weren't in the league of Kelfa... though Gohan in the manga was actually the one to take out Kelfa. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that since as mentioned before the manga is a lot different in the anime in how the Tournament of Power goes in a lot of places and yeah in the manga Gohan and Kelfa fought and both knocked each other out which took out Universe 6 from the tourney. Actually in the manga Kale/Kelfa did a lot more damage having taken out like at least 1/4 of the contestants on their own so that victory probably meant more in the manga. While here in a sense I consider this a good example of a team attack instead of just one directly responsible for the loss of team 6.

It’s not subtle that Universe 2 is a massive Magical Girl parody, but Dragon Ball has a long history of parodying other anime and genres. Android #8 in the original Dragon Ball was a massive Frankenstein parody/homage, but before him Goku actually fought another android who was very visually based off Arnold Schwarzenegger in The Terminator series. But perhaps more famous are the Ginyu Force and Gohan’s stint as The Great Sayiaman is a parody of Sentai/Superheroes. If there’s one thing Akira Toriyama loves, it’s taking the piss out of other genres.
Which of course Toriyama was doing even BEFORE Dragon Ball with Dr. Slump. As Arale was a weird take on something like Astro Boy but more directly you had a character called Suppaman who yeah was a pretty direct Superman ripoff who actually appeared in the Dragon Ball episode that had Dr. Slump characters cross over.


Universe 6 is basically “What if Dragon Ball was remade as a modern anime.” Instead of the protagonist being a fully developed from the start wild child like Goku, the closest thing to a protagonist is Cabba who is much more like characters like Deku from MHA, a character who undergoes an arc, learning to get confidence in himself. And the Namekians, instead of being friendly peaceful aliens, are full blown as “The Other,” being quiet and completely alien. And much like how modern anime tend to find one concept for powering up and run with it, U6 takes the idea of Namekian fusion and follows it through to it’s natural extreme conclusion.
Also in modern animes actually trying to at least a bit more progressive in actually having female combatants into the narrative, Kale and Caluifa being the first female super sayians would also count as being more modern. Especially with the "les yay" shipping you can certainly read between the two... I guess Les yay shipping is something more common in modern cartoons then just modern anime but still.

universes left are... 11 is the Pride, 4 is the one Roshi took out that duck guy, and 3 is the one the dude Vegeta is fighting is from?
4 is the one with the Mouse ish God of Destruction whose fighters seem to be all about trickery (remember how Roshi also took out a female combantant trying to exploit her looks and someone using shadow manipulation in addition to that duck guy) and yeah Vegeta's fighting the guy from universe 3 which seems to be the universe of various machine people and cyborgs. So obviously we'll be focusing on them next and likely saving Universe 11 for last... well those of us who watched ahead knows what will happen but on a pure story telling level would make sense to make the most built up universe with the highest level fighters the last ones focused on right?

Mystic/Ultimate/Potential Unleashed is more powerful than SSJ3, without the energy drain. At present, Gohan had increased that power via meditation between episodes 88-90.
Again in the original Buu arc Mystic/Ultimate/Potential Unleashed Gohan was definitely stronger then Super Sayian 3 as he was the one who was suppose to take out Buu... but Toriyama didn't like that and thus wanted something different thus made up a bunch of convoluted nonsense to swap out Gohan for Goku, which makes the whole "was Mystic Gohan stronger then full power super Sayian 3 Goku at the time" kind of up for debate dependent on how strong you consider Kid/Pure Buu compared to Super Buu absorbing Gotenks or later Gohan. Now though Potential Unleashed Gohan is stronger then a Super Sayian 3... though hard to tell sometimes with how power scaling works or rather doesn't in this tourney.

You know my one disappointment with this episode is really considering there is a huge theme of team work throughout on each side (the Universe 2 trio taking the powers and prayers from their entire dimension to transform and have all of this ultimate power; the two Namekians absorbing all of their fellow warriors from Universe 6 which IMHO feels kind of like a last minute decision writing wise to justify them being the last of their universe as yeah since when did Namekian fusion take so long to work but ehhhh works well enough within the actual episode I suppose... oh and also Gohan and Piccolo tag team) it does feel weak to have just Goku defeat Universe 2. It should of been more a combined attack between Goku, 17 and 18. Seriously the Andriods even within this tourney have been stated to have infinite energy so couldn't they also help shoot blasts and combine theirs with Goku instead of just giving him another solo win especially showing them work together to fight previously? Otherwise though I actually really like this one. Yeah neither the Universe 2 trio or Universe 6 Namekians were interesting or relevant characters and honestly like them or not Kale and Califua/Rirebrenne were at least memorable but I do like them putting on this final stand in one last ditch effort to win. And I also like the focus on Piccolo realizing how the Namekians fused like he did and actually seeing Kami and Piccolo within him which... man that was something debated for like 20 years in the dragon ball community if there were still spirtual representations of the two within Piccolo at all that I'm so glad to now see confirmed to be true as I always believed that. Plus yeah as a huge Gohan fan glad to see him have this big team work moment with Piccolo finally pay off that's been building for episodes with the two taking out Universe 6's last two members together. And the finale of the universes was actually good in trying to keep in more positive spirits despite being wiped out in such a way. Really helps build up the feeling of loss such stakes at this should have especially yeah now that we're down to the final four universes and seeing how all that plays out... which will come across some more next time but still really solid ep despite like that one complaint I have about it.
 

A.Magik

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"To be fair even with the fusion of all the other various Namekians, Pilina and Saonel still weren't in the league of Kelfa... though Gohan in the manga was actually the one to take out Kelfa. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that since as mentioned before the manga is a lot different in the anime in how the Tournament of Power goes in a lot of places and yeah in the manga Gohan and Kelfa fought and both knocked each other out which took out Universe 6 from the tourney. Actually in the manga Kale/Kelfa did a lot more damage having taken out like at least 1/4 of the contestants on their own so that victory probably meant more in the manga."

Probably, although that's not really saying much. Manga Gohan defeating Kefla does feel more like a concept without substance, since Toyotaro decided to put 90% of the fight off panel, just showing the beginning and the end of it. Overall, the Manga did not do much for Gohan, limiting him to mention or omakes (the only time he appears in the Manga version of the Zamazu/Trunks Arc, after the battle and completely in the dark) until the gathering for the trip to the void. In keeping to its portrayal of Goku's paternal relationship (more on that later), there is no Gohan in the Zeno Exhibition Round or the Recruitment Arcs, so no fight with Lavendar or Kuririn or Goku, and the training with Piccolo is offpanel (and evidently not as progressive as the Anime version, judging by Manga Piccolo’s account of the training). Perhaps this is my Gohan fanboyism talking, but I felt TOEI gave a lot of heart to Gohan in the 2017 episodes of SUPER (beginning with the Great SaiyaMan Movie Mini-Arc broadcast that January; this episode was broadcast in November). Granted, they were under certain restrictions (this is the Goku & Vejita show remember), but it seemed like they were having fun using the character. In the Manga, it felt like Toyataro was just dragging his feet about using Gohan, doing the Kefla beat with little enthusiasm. Worst of all, there was very little resolution to my biggest gripe against the Manga: Goku’s rejection of Gohan. In the Manga version of the U6 Tourney, he angrily writes off enlisting Gohan, calling him a bookworm and then later refers to him as excrement for skipping the Tourney for a conference (unlike the Anime, where Goku is understanding to Gohan's priorities). In this arc, he takes the idea of Fighter-Gohan with confusion, as if DBZ never happened. The only resolution we get is Goku reaction to Gohan falling off, as if that somehow absolves him of calling his own son excrement. So, it’s Anime SUPER Gohan for me.

"While here in a sense I consider this a good example of a team attack instead of just one directly responsible for the loss of team 6."
Which is keeping with Anime Gohan's characterization of Team Player. Still, Gohan is tied with Goku in removing three of the U6 fighters (maybe 4ish if you count helping Freeza with Frost). Piccolo 2 (helping Gohan with 2), Vejita 2 (helping Goku in 1), Freeza 2, Jiren 1. It's confusing.
 
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Yojimbo

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"To be fair even with the fusion of all the other various Namekians, Pilina and Saonel still weren't in the league of Kelfa... though Gohan in the manga was actually the one to take out Kelfa.
Yeah... the sceience of Namekians increasing their power level between and during fights is even more mysterious to me than the Saiyans. But it seems they can't rapidly make gains like the Saiyans, which is kinda unfortunate especially in the DBZ era. Since the only times Piccolo got a boost was when he took on Nail then later Kami. But then it also seems like he's boosting his power level through mediation?

4 is the one with the Mouse ish God of Destruction whose fighters seem to be all about trickery (remember how Roshi also took out a female combantant trying to exploit her looks and someone using shadow manipulation in addition to that duck guy) and yeah Vegeta's fighting the guy from universe 3 which seems to be the universe of various machine people and cyborgs. So obviously we'll be focusing on them next and likely saving Universe 11 for last... well those of us who watched ahead knows what will happen but on a pure story telling level would make sense to make the most built up universe with the highest level fighters the last ones focused on right?
Ok, yes. I remember. But boy, I need to look for a visual play by play breaking them down by universe. lol. So I guess 4 and 3 are mostly hiding and 11 is just observing like Frieza.
 

Neo Ultra Mike

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So, it’s Anime SUPER Gohan for me.
I agree that due to actually showing much more character and focus Gohan is presented better just saying technically you can say he's more responsible for Universe 6's elimination in the manga then in the anime. And yeah granted that does feel like more of an after thought but honestly so do most except like 5 or 6 major battles or moments in the manga's tournament of power honestly. Heck Kale and Kelfa herself taking out so many is probably a cop out excuse to have less fights since though there are multiple take outs in the anime's tourney of power they tend to feel more significant then how quickly the manga cycles through them.

Yeah... the sceience of Namekians increasing their power level between and during fights is even more mysterious to me than the Saiyans. But it seems they can't rapidly make gains like the Saiyans, which is kinda unfortunate especially in the DBZ era. Since the only times Piccolo got a boost was when he took on Nail then later Kami. But then it also seems like he's boosting his power level through mediation?
Well the thing is also we have no idea exactly what the original power level of these Namekians are or of the Namekians in World 6. In the Freeza Saga Piccolo actually did recieve quite a relative healthy power up from fusing with Nail. We know Nail was 42,000 at the time and though Piccolo was stronger I don't think it was by that much since he didn't even learn Kaio Ken at King Kai's so at most I assume he was around.... 60,000. And their fusion put them at over a million to take on form 2 Freeza. It should also be noted the fusion with Kami was so much stronger was because Kami and Piccolo were originally one so rejoining with your original self after one side had gained so much power would so easily tip the scales. However those power gains still only go up to the early Cell Saga as by the Buu saga and especially now power gains need to be a lot higher to really count. Again due to power scaling being really impossible to gauge it's really deeds and levels and whose fighting who you can really only gauge these things on. So that's what we have to go with here.
 
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