C&C - Attack on Titan - "That Day" [7/13]

[Kitschensyngk]

Okay. You're a racist. We get it.

Serves you right, Nazi Hercule Poriot.

HOOT HOOT.

 

[Mr. Anime]

So we are playing with some very heavy issues that in a time when our government is putting refuges in interment camps and Antisemitism and racism in general is on the rise again worldwide needs to be handled with sensitivity.

And this isn't it.

And it gets worse the deeper you dig. I'll just leave this article here. (Warning: spoilers for stuff that goes beyond the anime.)

The long and short of it is that Hajime Isayama just might be a fascist sympathizer of Japan's World War II military regime.

 

[Nobodyman]

And it gets worse the deeper you dig. I'll just leave this article here.

Uh, yeah, you could have mentioned that there are some big spoilers in that article.

 

[Yojimbo]

That kind of history. Things are starting to make sense. So Beast Titan is Zeke, Grisha's first son and Eren's stepbrother? Didn't see that coming. And Zeke, Reiner, Bertdholdt, the quadroped Titan, and Annie are agents sent from the Marleians I take it. And for some reason I'm sure will be shown next week, Grisha takes the Titan Kruger has and that's the one he passes on to Eren.

 

[Kitschensyngk]

That kind of history. Things are starting to make sense. So Beast Titan is Zeke, Grisha's first son and Eren's stepbrother? Didn't see that coming. And Zeke, Reiner, Bertdholdt, the quadroped Titan, and Annie are agents sent from the Marleians I take it. And for some reason I'm sure will be shown next week, Grisha takes the Titan Kruger has and that's the one he passes on to Eren.

And Grisha's first wife ate his second. Don't forget that.

 

[Yojimbo]

And Grisha's first wife ate his second. Don't forget that.

Oh, man, that's right! Yeesh. Just yeesh.

 

[Light Lucario]

I really don't know how to feel about this episode. First off, I'll give Toonami credit for airing the post-credit scene from the previous episode right before starting this one. Putting online was still good, but since that played a key role in this flashback. That was a neat thing for them to do so that fans wouldn't be too confused.

We finally got to learn a lot of information about the world outside of its walls and much like the series itself, it is bleak and brutal. I guess I should have expected the little sister to be killed. Little sister characters are almost as killed as often as mothers, especially in flashbacks. They went through a lot of Grisha's life within a short amount of time. I didn't think that he had a first wife or another son aside from Erin.

I've heard some rumblings about this twist for a long time, but seeing it unfold was a thousand times worse. There is no mistaken that the Titans are supposed to be the equivalent of Jewish people. They're a marginalized group of people who are set in their own ghetto area, they are treated as demons and their oppressors have altered their history. This wasn't just problematic. This was just deeply concerning all around for so many reasons. Turning Jewish people, or the stand-ins for them in this world, into giant monsters who eat humans is so terrible. Honestly, making the Titans victims in itself would be hard to pull off even without the Antisemitism overtones. They've killed so many people and have generally been seen/treated as monsters that going around and making them victims of another corrupted government just doesn't really work. It feels like a twist for the shake of it.

I'm also not sure what they're trying to say with the flashbacks in regards to marginalized people fighting back against their oppressors. Grisha telling Zeke about their history and imposing his beliefs on his son was treated as the same as what his father tried to do. Grisha certainly didn't handle the situation well. He even questioned if he ever saw Zeke as anything but a prince who could save their people, but the two instances weren't really on the same level. It almost made me think that they were trying to say that even the oppressed fighting back was continuing the cycle of violence or at least was problematic on some level, but that really doesn't work when Grisha's people aren't even considered human and his sister was literally eaten by dogs.

This is made especially worse given the current politics in regards to racism and fascism, but even if that somehow wasn't the case, this would still be a deeply troubling overtone to the story. At best, the twist is completely tone-deaf to the real world association of Jewish people and all of their struggles, including being demonized. At worst, it is blatant Antisemitism and makes the notion that the manga author is a fascist sympathizer, or just fascist since that's practically the same thing, all the more believable. I've heard about that accusation for awhile, especially in relation to some statements he has made about Korea, but this development really makes it far more likely. I can't even really say that the twist would work if you didn't think of the real world implications. The connections are so blatantly obviously that you can't really look away or that it doesn't draw inspiration from Jewish people, or at least I can't.

At least that creep of an officer was killed. He was just a flat out disturbed individual who took pleasure in watching innocent people die. As I said before, I don't really know if I can call this episode good or bad, although I'm leading more towards bad just because of the terrible implication that the flashback has. It does make me regret finding this season more interesting because the twist is so much more upsetting than I could have expected. I'll still finish off season three at least, but I don't know if I'll watch the eventual season four when it gets a dub. This twist does change my perspective on the series and not for the better. The flashback just makes me feel far too uncomfortable for being even the slightest bit engaged with the series.

 

[QWER5]

L

So we are playing with some very heavy issues that in a time when our government is putting refuges in interment camps and Antisemitism and racism in general is on the rise again worldwide needs to be handled with sensitivity.

And this isn't it.

And it gets worse the deeper you dig. I'll just leave this article here. (Warning: spoilers for stuff that goes beyond the anime.)

The long and short of it is that Hajime Isayama just might be a fascist sympathizer of Japan's World War II military regime.

Isayama's questionable views of Japan's role in World War II (of which I'm not totally aware of) aside, I've never understood this argument.

The Eldians literally only become Titans because the horrifically evil Marlyeans use it to punish them horribly for it because incredibly dubious things that happened long before any of them were born.

I honestly cannot understand any interpretation which things to point of this is supposed to be some endorsement of facism or antisemitism.

There are certainly elements here I get finding uncomfortable (some come later), but claiming that's intentional just doesn't hold up with what this story has actually said and will say.

 

[Kitschensyngk]

Isayama's questionable views of Japan's role in World War II (of which I'm not totally aware of) aside, I've never understood this argument.

The Eldians literally only become Titans because the horrifically evil Marlyeans use it to punish them horribly for it because incredibly dubious things that happened long before any of them were born.

I honestly cannot understand any interpretation which things to point of this is supposed to be some endorsement of facism or antisemitism.

There are certainly elements here I get finding uncomfortable (some come later), but claiming that's intentional just doesn't hold up with what this story has actually said and will say.

I may not have all the facts here, but I just interpreted the story as one race of people subjugating another race of people by brainwashing them, rewriting history to their detriment, and forcing them to live in squalor and misery. I didn't see it as condoning any form of fascism. That guard who killed Grisha's sister DID get divine retribution in the end.

In hindsight, though, the armbands and human experimentation make it a bit too real.

 

[Endeavor24]

I really don't know how to feel about this episode. First off, I'll give Toonami credit for airing the post-credit scene from the previous episode right before starting this one. Putting online was still good, but since that played a key role in this flashback. That was a neat thing for them to do so that fans wouldn't be too confused.

We finally got to learn a lot of information about the world outside of its walls and much like the series itself, it is bleak and brutal. I guess I should have expected the little sister to be killed. Little sister characters are almost as killed as often as mothers, especially in flashbacks. They went through a lot of Grisha's life within a short amount of time. I didn't think that he had a first wife or another son aside from Erin.

I've heard some rumblings about this twist for a long time, but seeing it unfold was a thousand times worse. There is no mistaken that the Titans are supposed to be the equivalent of Jewish people. They're a marginalized group of people who are set in their own ghetto area, they are treated as demons and their oppressors have altered their history. This wasn't just problematic. This was just deeply concerning all around for so many reasons. Turning Jewish people, or the stand-ins for them in this world, into giant monsters who eat humans is so terrible. Honestly, making the Titans victims in itself would be hard to pull off even without the Antisemitism overtones. They've killed so many people and have generally been seen/treated as monsters that going around and making them victims of another corrupted government just doesn't really work. It feels like a twist for the shake of it.

I'm also not sure what they're trying to say with the flashbacks in regards to marginalized people fighting back against their oppressors. Grisha telling Zeke about their history and imposing his beliefs on his son was treated as the same as what his father tried to do. Grisha certainly didn't handle the situation well. He even questioned if he ever saw Zeke as anything but a prince who could save their people, but the two instances weren't really on the same level. It almost made me think that they were trying to say that even the oppressed fighting back was continuing the cycle of violence or at least was problematic on some level, but that really doesn't work when Grisha's people aren't even considered human and his sister was literally eaten by dogs.

This is made especially worse given the current politics in regards to racism and fascism, but even if that somehow wasn't the case, this would still be a deeply troubling overtone to the story. At best, the twist is completely tone-deaf to the real world association of Jewish people and all of their struggles, including being demonized. At worst, it is blatant Antisemitism and makes the notion that the manga author is a fascist sympathizer, or just fascist since that's practically the same thing, all the more believable. I've heard about that accusation for awhile, especially in relation to some statements he has made about Korea, but this development really makes it far more likely. I can't even really say that the twist would work if you didn't think of the real world implications. The connections are so blatantly obviously that you can't really look away or that it doesn't draw inspiration from Jewish people, or at least I can't.

At least that creep of an officer was killed. He was just a flat out disturbed individual who took pleasure in watching innocent people die. As I said before, I don't really know if I can call this episode good or bad, although I'm leading more towards bad just because of the terrible implication that the flashback has. It does make me regret finding this season more interesting because the twist is so much more upsetting than I could have expected. I'll still finish off season three at least, but I don't know if I'll watch the eventual season four when it gets a dub. This twist does change my perspective on the series and not for the better. The flashback just makes me feel far too uncomfortable for being even the slightest bit engaged with the series.

Honestly, if you drop this show because you don't like the associating with Nazi Germany treatment of the Jewish; well.... it is one of the best reasons to drop a show that I heard off. Sure, it is a shame because next season is the final one with the manga currently in its endgame but you obviously feel very strongly about this. Although I don't believe for a fraction of a second that this condones fascism; its the opposite.

I am a manga reader so I know what will happen from here on out. So the only thing I can say (without spoilers and based only from this episode) is that this is topic of the repeating issue of one race oppressing another throughout human history with the Jewish people being the most obvious reference. In the next arc this is handled very tastefully in that it explores all sides of what that kind of thinking can entail. "Freedom" was always the main theme of the series and we now exploring the dark side of it. Marley was oppressed by the Eldians and now they are doing it to the Eldians because they want revenge for that time. This happens 1000 of years ago and we heard two versions of that story from both sides. Which one is true?

Answer: it doesn't matter. Oppression is wrong no matter what "justification". Plus, we don't know why Zeke betray them yet it could be any number of reasons that we don't see because this flashback is from Grisha perspective. I don't think the show is saying its wrong for the eldians to want their freedom but that they shouldn't go down to the marleians level to get it, because if they did more of the same will most likely happen

Also both sides are brainwashed here if officer Gross is any indication. He even admits that he can do these awful things because he was unable to see them as human like you said. Reiner, Bert, Annie, Zeke(and I think someone else I can't think of) became warriors in order to improve their lives. This is a horrible situation for everyone all around and its all because of fascism and its mindset.

Like I said there nothing I can say that convince you if the associating of real-world Nazi Germany is the problem. Although, if you worry the show is going to unapologetically use it to just to bring something new to the table than don't. This been building up since the first chapter. This twist is being handled very carefully and respectfully. The next arc is the one of best arcs of anything I seen, even with how much of an improvement this season was, and its all because of what being learn here.

Well, this post is already long enough as it is so I leave it here.

 

[Light Lucario]

Honestly, if you drop this show because you don't like the associating with Nazi Germany treatment of the Jewish; well.... it is one of the best reasons to drop a show that I heard off. Sure, it is a shame because next season is the final one with the manga currently in its endgame but you obviously feel very strongly about this. Although I don't believe for a fraction of a second that this condones fascism; its the opposite.

I appreciate your understanding. I was kind of worried about people getting on my case for potentially dropping the series for this reason. I haven't settled on that decision yet, but it is going to be on my mind during the rest of this season.

I am a manga reader so I know what will happen from here on out. So the only thing I can say (without spoilers and based only from this episode) is that this is topic of the repeating issue of one race oppressing another throughout human history with the Jewish people being the most obvious reference. In the next arc this is handled very tastefully in that it explores all sides of what that kind of thinking can entail. "Freedom" was always the main theme of the series and we now exploring the dark side of it. Marley was oppressed by the Eldians and now they are doing it to the Eldians because they want revenge for that time. This happens 1000 of years ago and we heard two versions of that story from both sides. Which one is true?

Answer: it doesn't matter. Oppression is wrong no matter what "justification". Plus, we don't know why Zeke betray them yet it could be any number of reasons that we don't see because this flashback is from Grisha perspective. I don't think the show is saying its wrong for the eldians to want their freedom but that they shouldn't go down to the marleians level to get it, because if they did more of the same will most likely happen

That interpretation still kind of rubs me the wrong way. It is implying that if the Elidans went down to the Marleians levels to get their freedom, they would just become the new Marleians in a sense and continue the cycle of violence/oppression. Marginalized people's efforts to break away from their oppressors shouldn't be put on equal level to what their oppressors do to them. I'm not even sure it's fair to say that the Eldians would treat the Marleians the same way if thy had been able to gain their freedom. It is possible that would have happened and tensions would have been high with both sides regardless, but I'm just not sure if that would have been likely to happen.

They could be implying that the cycle of violence would continue regardless of who is the dominate power in their society, but by heavily associating the Elidans with Jewish people and their history, it makes that notion much more problematic. Even if they hadn't gone in that direction, I'm not sure what the Elidans could have done to fight back against the Marleians. This wasn't really a situation where they could have handled it in a more peaceful manner when Elidans aren't even considered human.

Also both sides are brainwashed here if officer Gross is any indication. He even admits that he can do these awful things because he was unable to see them as human like you said. Reiner, Bert, Annie, Zeke(and I think someone else I can't think of) became warriors in order to improve their lives. This is a horrible situation for everyone all around and its all because of fascism and its mindset.

Well they fortunately don't glorify characters like Gross and getting his punishment for his cruel actions was immensely satisfying. I just don't think making the Titans victims was a good choice, or at least the heavy Jewish associations just instantly set off alarm bells for me. It's definitely compounded with our current political environment and the author's behavior towards Korea, but I imagine that this would still rub me the wrong way without those factors. Having the Titans basically be Jewish, or more accurately the stand-ins for Jewish people in this universe, just seems like poor tastes to me, if not just unaware of how this would appear to a global audience. I'm sure that the author is more focused on appealing to Japanese fans and that is understandable, but not factoring in how this could affect readers outside of Japan doesn't really sound like a good idea in this context.

[quote="Endeavor24']Like I said there nothing I can say that convince you if the associating of real-world Nazi Germany is the problem. Although, if you worry the show is going to unapologetically use it to just to bring something new to the table than don't. This been building up since the first chapter. This twist is being handled very carefully and respectfully. The next arc is the one of best arcs of anything I seen, even with how much of an improvement this season was, and its all because of what being learn here.

Well, this post is already long enough as it is so I leave it here.
[/QUOTE]

I do feel kind of conflicted because this season has been an all around improvement for the series. I still would say that the series doesn't quite live up to its hype, but this season had more substance compared to the previous two. But watching this twist unfold just really made me uncomfortable. It just set off a lot of red flags and kind of hearing about it before didn't help. I didn't understand the full context until this episode, but I heard bits of Titans basically being Jewish for awhile. I'm still willing to watch the rest of season three to see where it goes and it helps that there are only a few episodes left too. I suspect that the next arc is not going to start until season four. I'll just have to see if the remaining episodes of this season will give me a better impression on how they'll handle this new information in the rest of the series.