"Batman: Caped Crusader" Season One Talkback (Spoilers)

[b.t.]

Karkull, I just remembreed there are a few more Easter Eggs embedded in ‘…And Be A Villain’….

’Yvonne Frances’ gets her name from actress Frances Drake and the character she played in the classic 1935 shocker MAD LOVE, Yvonne Orlac.

’Darryl Manning’ is somewhat suggestive of David Manners, who played the handsome-but-largely-ineffectual ‘hero’ in three famous Universal Horrors, DRACULA, THE MUMMY and THE BLACK CAT.

(Oh, and speaking of THE BLACK CAT, William Hastings’cliffside mansion in ‘The Stress of Her Regard’ is reminiscent of Boris Karloff’s Bauhaus-style ‘castle’ in that film.)

Besides ‘Dwayne Freed‘ / Dwight Frye, there are similar anagramatic or misspelled versions of the names of frequent Universal supporting players Edward Van Sloan and Michael Mark on the stars lining the hallway outside Karlo’s dressing room, but they’re way too small to be legible, even in HD.

Karlo/Ellman’s face showing the imprint of Montoya’s fist is something that occasionally happened to classic pulp hero Richard Henry Benson, The Avenger.

 

[Yojimbo]

James Tucker recalled Bruce Timm did the rough design of Firebug, Derek Charm did the final turn and clean on that one, and he was inspired by Peter Lorre’s character Hans Beckert in “M”.

 

[Frontier]

I just posted another episode recap, this one for "...And Be a Villain." I just wanted to thank b.t. and everyone for helping me figure out all the Easter Eggs. Enjoy!

I feel like the show's use of Basil Karlo as Clayface in this episode was bit of a full-circle moment with the DCAU whereas B:TAS gave the acting background and motivation to their interpretation of Matt Hagen but here we see a comic-accurate adaption of Karlo only he has Hagen's Clayface power. Adaptions are fun .

"Greg Rucka, the author of the script, gave Detective Montoya the badge number 742, which is the issue number that he took over writing duties for Detective Comics (March 2000)."

I feel like you can definitely tell Greg Rucka's influence in the writing of the episode, from the focus on Renee (and her estranged relationship with her biological father is possibly related to how he disowned her after she was outed in Gotham Central), the way Bruce kind of coldly dismisses people (including possible love interests), and even Yvonne refusing to let herself be just a typical damsel in distress to service Karlo's ego.

Also, Yvonne is too good for this version of Bruce!

"Unlike the Penguin from the pilot, Basil Karlo was never actually referred to as “Clayface” in this episode"

This will be a growing trend for the show .

The tension between Bruce and Alfred was one of the best parts of the episode. It's always dramatic gold when Batman is forced to face the consequences of his obsessive ruthlessness (as in "Old Wounds") and ask himself whether he's gone too far. And the relationship between Bruce and Alfred was by far the most interesting one in Caped Crusader, the one capable of generating some real suprises.

And also the consequences of the "Bruce Wayne" act where treating it like just an extension of being Batman and not acting like he actually cared about someone just made everything worse .

James Tucker recalled Bruce Timm did the rough design of Firebug, Derek Charm did the final turn and clean on that one, and he was inspired by Peter Lorre’s character Hans Beckert in “M”.

Knowing Derek Charm's art style, I can kind of see it now .

 

[b.t.]

Actually, when I did my initial rough for Firebug, I was thinking of Dwight Frye again, specifically with the severe haircut and makeup he had as Dr. Pretorious’ henchman Karl in BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN.

 

[Yojimbo]

(Oh, and speaking of THE BLACK CAT, William Hastings’cliffside mansion in ‘The Stress of Her Regard’ is reminiscent of Boris Karloff’s Bauhaus-style ‘castle’ in that film.)

Oooh, Poelzig’s mansion! Also involved people being secretly held captive in the mansion. Also from that episode, was the Hopper's Jazz Club at the end of the episode named after the artist Edward Hopper (Nighthawks)?

 

[Karkull]

Karkull, I just remembreed there are a few more Easter Eggs embedded in ‘…And Be A Villain’….

’Yvonne Frances’ gets her name from actress Frances Drake and the character she played in the classic 1935 shocker MAD LOVE, Yvonne Orlac.

’Darryl Manning’ is somewhat suggestive of David Manners, who played the handsome-but-largely-ineffectual ‘hero’ in three famous Universal Horrors, DRACULA, THE MUMMY and THE BLACK CAT.

(Oh, and speaking of THE BLACK CAT, William Hastings’cliffside mansion in ‘The Stress of Her Regard’ is reminiscent of Boris Karloff’s Bauhaus-style ‘castle’ in that film.)

Besides ‘Dwayne Freed‘ / Dwight Frye, there are similar anagramatic or misspelled versions of the names of frequent Universal supporting players Edward Van Sloan and Michael Mark on the stars lining the hallway outside Karlo’s dressing room, but they’re way too small to be legible, even in HD.

Karlo/Ellman’s face showing the imprint of Montoya’s fist is something that occasionally happened to classic pulp hero Richard Henry Benson, The Avenger.

...And updated! Thank you, b.t., for your generosity.

Out of curiosity, was Selina Kyle's design based on anybody? For some reason, I think she resembles Hedy Lamarr.

 

[b.t.]

Selina has some Paulette Goddard DNA in her.

 

[Karkull]

Selina has some Paulette Goddard DNA in her.

Hmm. Not only did she star in The Cat and the Canary (1939) and Kitty (1945), but her third husband was Burgess Meredith (the Penguin from the '60s Batman series). Well played.

 

[Yojimbo]

What a season finale. They couldn't secure Dent, took a bullet for Barbara, Batman uses a gun but chucks it, Thorne gets a "warning", and the Joker teaser. You think you've seen the rictus smiles on his victims, then they bust out a new even creepier take on them. I thought maybe there'd be a teaser with Harley or Scarecrow. Season 2 definitely got a lot more interesting.

 

[Frontier]

What a season finale. They couldn't secure Dent, took a bullet for Barbara, Batman uses a gun but chucks it, Thorne gets a "warning", and the Joker teaser. You think you've seen the rictus smiles on his victims, then they bust out a new even creepier take on them. I thought maybe there'd be a teaser with Harley or Scarecrow. Season 2 definitely got a lot more interesting.

We even see that Caped Crusader's Batman can pull off a sad Batman look .

I definitely feel like season 2 is going to see the dawn of costumed criminals and crazies to replace organized crime in Gotham with the chips in Thorne's empire (however minor) and the coming of The Joker. Even in season 1 alone we have Supervillains becoming more of the norm.

 

[Yojimbo]

We even see that Caped Crusader's Batman can pull off a sad Batman look .

I definitely feel like season 2 is going to see the dawn of costumed criminals and crazies to replace organized crime in Gotham with the chips in Thorne's empire (however minor) and the coming of The Joker. Even in season 1 alone we have Supervillains becoming more of the norm.

True, it could be a season arc of the costumes supplanting organized crime. I wonder if they'll take a page out of Dark Knight, and in desperation, Thorne turns to someone to take out Batman like... Joker.

Also curious if the 'bad odds' will remain or will they seek out more allies. Not necessarily sidekicks or other heroes, but will more good cops, lawyers, reporters show up? Also for that matter, will Flass and Bullock still be cops in season 2.

 

[Frontier]

True, it could be a season arc of the costumes supplanting organized crime. I wonder if they'll take a page out of Dark Knight, and in desperation, Thorne turns to someone to take out Batman like... Joker.

Also curious if the 'bad odds' will remain or will they seek out more allies. Not necessarily sidekicks or other heroes, but will more good cops, lawyers, reporters show up? Also for that matter, will Flass and Bullock still be cops in season 2.

I can see Thorne hiring a costume to try to and ace Batman (that's originally what I was expecting with Onomatopoeia) but I feel like Joker is going to be an unpredictable and psychotic terrorist who no one can control or wants to deal with.

I think the important thing will be Batman solidifying his relationship with the "good" police, especially Gordon. Thorne made it sound like Flass and Bullock would get out of trouble but I don't get the sense they'll be as big in season 2 as they were in season 1.

Can they count on Lois Lane ?

 

[Revelator]

Can they count on Lois Lane ?

Or Vicki Vale?

 

[Frontier]

Or Vicki Vale?

I love how they made the female redhead reporter look like Golden Age Lois and never confirmed her identity so you can just project whether you want her to be Lois, Vicki, or Summer Gleeson .

 

[Otaku-sempai]

I love how they made the female redhead reporter look like Golden Age Lois and never confirmed her identity so you can just project whether you want her to be Lois, Vicki, or Summer Gleeson .

FYI: Vicki Vale did debut during the Golden Age, if a bit late (1948).

 

[RoyalRubble]

I remember confusing Vicki with Summer on Batman: The Brave & the Bold.

Honestly I like the use of Lois (& Jimmy) here and don't really want the show to expand on their roles. Maybe bring on an archaeologist who looks like Carter Hall in season 2.

 

[MatthewP]

ok i prolly asked something similar before in this thread but if this show gets picked up for a second season, do you think there’ll be more bat-related vigilantes, or will this just be about the moody loner batman (not unlike most short-lived batman media)?

 

[The Overlord]

If he was quirky and colorful sure.
But he's not, as far as the show depicts Onomatopoeia, he's another generic bad guy, with nothing special to him at all.

Yeah, but Onomatopoeia is a plot device rather than a character. Which is fine sometimes, usually in a story where the plot is to stop the assassin from killing his target, the hitman is not a deep character.

The gangsters from the BTAS episode POV did not get a lot of characterization nor did Jazzman from the episode "I Am the Night". Those villains are not the focus of the story of those episodes.

A hitman character is not the most complex, it's not like Bullseye from Daredevil is a super deep character. Hitmen are motivated by money or violence, they are not deep. I don't think the episode would have been better or worse if is Deadshot was the assassin instead.

Personally, I kind of prefer Batman: The Animated Series take on the rogues as sympathetic tortured souls with complex psychological issues. Wasn't a fan of this Harvey Dent being a huge jerk pre-villainification. I know some people have believed that approach for Batman villains is overdone and prefer a traditional "black hat" unsympathetic bad guy with a capital B, but I would have liked to see more of the former. I know Nocturna is one of the examples of the former, and her episode was one of the better ones. I kinda found more emotional investment in BTAS than this series, but it wasn't necessarily bad. Just my opinion on the handling of the villains.

To be fair, I think Penguin, Flass, Onomatopoeia, Clayface and Gentleman Ghost are the only villains with no redeeming qualities.

Rupert Throne valuing his son's life over his own was interesting.

Catwoman was not really a villain, she was more of a selfish thrill seeker. Harley Quinn was an anti villain who did what she thought was right. Nocturne was a somewhat tragic villain, she did not choose to be a monster and regretted accidentally killing her brother. Firebug was legitimately mentally ill. Harvey became more sympathetic when he became Two-Face, there is a certain irony that he only became Two-Face because he did the right thing and that led to him becoming Two-Face.

It's not like BTAS lacked slimy villains. Joker was a monster, many of the non-costumed villains like Sewer King, Dagget, Jazzman, Boss Biggis, Grant Walker, etc were pure scumbags. Heck, Scarecrow and Firefly were never sympathetic on BTAS and someone like Mad Hatter seems a lot more unsympathetic by modern standards.

I always feel like a good rogues gallery should have a good combo of sympathetic and unsympathetic villains, both are necessary, IMO.

 

[M.O.D.O.K.]

The Stress of Her Regard

I like the basic idea of this version of Harley Quinn. Someone with a creepy costume and demeanor, the ruler/jester role reversal, and basically running her own operation without the Joker being involved. I don't feel the execution does it justice, though. The brainwashed patients just come off as more goofy than creepy. I also feel we don't get enough of Harley's costume persona to get a feel for her, especially considering how much Harleen we get in the previous episodes.

I was surprised that Harley's friendship with Barbara was as vital as it was. I expected the show to do more with her budding romance with Renee since that was more publicized, but I guess that might be more of a season 2 story.

It's kind of funny and a little messed up that Batman avoided being one of Harley's victims by stonewalling her in "Kiss of the Catwoman". Though we finally see someone challenging Batman's lack of tact by the end when he talked down to Barbara. It won't be the first time either.

This is the second Jonathan Crane reference. I'm wondering if these were just meant to be Easter eggs of the character or if they were trying to seed him into this world in case they were greenlit for more seasons.

Night Ride

Gotta love the juxtaposition of the armory vehicle drivers discussing income inequality in Gotham, followed by an attack from Gentleman Ghost. Such a good contrast between a grounded element and a fantastic situation that don't end up contradicting each other.

This was an interesting take on Gentleman Ghost. I'll miss the faceless gentleman get-up, but I dig him being a highwayman who steals from the poor or downtrodden instead of the rich. It makes him scummier than normal. An entitled, racist, classist creep who wouldn't let death stop his worst habits. It makes his fate at the hands of Papa Midnite all the more satisfying, especially when considering Midnite's past as a slave.

Speaking of, this is arguably the first "team-up" that Batman's done with a non-Batman mythos character, and it's a much more refreshing choice than, say, Constantine, Zatanna, or Jason Blood. I wouldn't mind the rare team-up if they were more like this one.

I liked the focus on Alfred, especially its pay-off. Another example of Batman starting to embrace more of his humanity. He's not ready to stop calling Alfred "Pennyworth", but it's starting to get there.

My biggest issue with this episode is the shift in Harvey Dent's characterization. Suddenly, he cares about Gotham and believes himself to be above making deals with Rupert Thorne despite the first half of the show portraying him as a crook. I can maybe get the gist of it. Maybe he looks the other way for the rich, the police, and the politicians, but the mob is a step too far. However, I don't feel the show establishes that boundary well. I feel this is a result of the season only having 10 episodes and having to juggle stand-alone stories with some serialization and ALSO being more of an ensemble show. It's a major issue with streaming in general, frankly.

 

[neverangryman]

I was thinking who Thorn's henchman reminds me of, and I think it's this henchman from Beverly Hills Cop, haha, similar expressionless face and vibes kinda