Batman Beyond "The Call, Parts 1 & 2" Talkback (Spoilers)

Rate and Comment on "The Call, Parts 1 & 2"


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DisneyBoy

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I kind of thought the S was from Kingdom Come. Am I wrong?

I just had the strangest realization...if Superman's BB design was done prior to JL...why didn't the creative team keep the same face and just lose the white for the JL Supes?

ALSO...in the KidsWB "pilot reel" we see Superman with his normal S:TAS face. Timm had said that the designs were still open to change (as can be seen with the two Johns), but why go from "Oh, we've already got a fine S:TAS Superman face" to "Let's make him look older!" And if older was deemed the way to go...why make it different than his BB look?

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SuperBat

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I just had the strangest realization...if Superman's BB design was done prior to JL...why didn't the creative team keep the same face and just lose the white for the JL Supes?

ALSO...in the KidsWB "pilot reel" we see Superman with his normal S:TAS face. Timm had said that the designs were still open to change (as can be seen with the two Johns), but why go from "Oh, we've already got a fine S:TAS Superman face" to "Let's make him look older!" And if older was deemed the way to go...why make it different than his BB look?
Superman doesn't look quite the same in that pilot as he did in STAS. Kinda goofy-looking, actually. As for the BB design, I think his jutted jaw made him look too old for even the JL Supes.

On a side note, I never really minded Superman's JL season 1 look. I prefer him the second way, to be sure, but I really didn't even take much notice that he looked older. In fact, it was only last year that I realized his appearance was reverted to make him look younger at all. :yawn:

Silly me.
 

b.t.

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i'm sure i've said this publicly before, but i'll say it again: JL season one superman's face design was NOT -- i repeat NOT -- designed to look "older", just "more rugged" or "more manly"...when drawn properly (maybe 2 or 3 scenes out of any given episode), it works great, but the cheek lines and eye details were apparently hard for the animators to draw consistently, so more often than not they actually DO make him look "older" or worse, "tired"...since that WASN'T the effect we wanted, we gave him a more simplified face design for season 2 and onward, much closer to his STAS look....

in "for the man who has everything", we were tempted to use his face model from "the call" for "older jor-el" -- since chris mcdonald had previously played both jor-el and "superman beyond", re-using the BATMAN BEYOND model had a certain appeal, but james and i thought it would be a fun little in-joke to use the season one superman model instead...
 

The Spirit

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The 1st part of The Call will always have a certain affection for me, for a personal reason. I watched it the morning at the hospital after my first son was born. I've since watched it with him, he'll be 7 on November 9th.
I always tell him that I watched it when he was just 2 days old. Even if I don't he reminds me now.
 

SuperBat

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i'm sure i've said this publicly before, but i'll say it again: JL season one superman's face design was NOT -- i repeat NOT -- designed to look "older", just "more rugged" or "more manly"...when drawn properly (maybe 2 or 3 scenes out of any given episode), it works great, but the cheek lines and eye details were apparently hard for the animators to draw consistently, so more often than not they actually DO make him look "older" or worse, "tired"...since that WASN'T the effect we wanted, we gave him a more simplified face design for season 2 and onward, much closer to his STAS look....

in "for the man who has everything", we were tempted to use his face model from "the call" for "older jor-el" -- since chris mcdonald had previously played both jor-el and "superman beyond", re-using the BATMAN BEYOND model had a certain appeal, but james and i thought it would be a fun little in-joke to use the season one superman model instead...
It's interesting that Superman showed less strength while designed to look "more manly." :yawn:

In the long run, it was a good move to switch him back. I can't imagine scenes like "I'm not like him! I'm nothing like him!" or "Right now, I wish to heaven that I were, but I'm not," with the "rugged" ( ;) ) look. Or better yet, his "For the Man Who Has Everything" outburst at Mongul ("Happy?!! Do you have any idea what you did to me?!")

As for the way he looked in "The Call," his face design is really only a couple lines different than JL's first season look. I really liked him in "The Call." He almost seemed cooler at eighty. :D
 

pixellj

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Just saw this episode, man, what a stinker. Guess I had higher expectations being a JL-ish episode. Like most everyone else, the whole point to BB being "Called" makes no sense. The season 3 eps before were so much better, this one really fell.

I also found it wierd that the JL is officially called JL Unlimited within the show, but there seemed to be only six heroes, with no reference to any other heroes anywhere as part of it. Nothing like "The other heroes are on assignment, it's up to us five to stop Supes"... yada yada.

The "More than you know son, more than you know" is a very interesting line, considering Epilogue. I wonder if the creative team knew Terry's connection to Bruce at that time.
 

DisneyBoy

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When I first expressed distaste at Terry being Bruce's son, I think the creative team posted confirming that it was an idea they'd had for a while already, possibly since the beginning of the show.

I don't see why Terry being called is such a problem for people. Clearly, Superman wasn't being controlled by Starro 24/7. Did the starfish control what he ate, or how often he went to the bathroom? Nope. The thing just wanted power, and probably realized how crucial it was to let Superman be Superman, only interfering when necessary. Why Starro was on Superman's chest and Lois never noticed however is another question. Either she or their sex life were dead.
 

SuperBat

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When I first expressed distaste at Terry being Bruce's son, I think the creative team posted confirming that it was an idea they'd had for a while already, possibly since the beginning of the show.

I don't see why Terry being called is such a problem for people. Clearly, Superman wasn't being controlled by Starro 24/7. Did the starfish control what he ate, or how often he went to the bathroom? Nope. The thing just wanted power, and probably realized how crucial it was to let Superman be Superman, only interfering when necessary. Why Starro was on Superman's chest and Lois never noticed however is another question. Either she or their sex life were dead.
I don't see why it's such a problem either, but I still have to disagree on the motive. You say that Starro wasn't controlling Superman's private matters, but you're just making assumptions. Not to be weird or anything, but Starro very well could've been doing those things. I think that being an intelligent creature, Starro would have to let Superman be Superman... through him.

The reason that doesn't make any sense, as far as I'm concerned, is because Superman had no memory of calling Terry once he came out of his trance. How could he have been trying to get through if that were the case?

Like I said earlier, when I watched it, I had no feelings of confusion. It seemed simple to me that Starro would go through the motions of recruiting Batman to cover his tracks. For starters, he wouldn't know enough about Terry McGinnis or Bruce Wayne to know how stupid an idea that was. And most importantly, the holes in his logic are pointless to try filling in. He's a super-powered starfish with vengeful control in mind. I don't see why or how we'd understand his thinking. Some think that bringing in Batman would've been a lesser move than just blowing things up, but Starro had a plan-- a plan that had moved along just fine before Batman. Why would he expect it to fall apart now?
 

S.C.B

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I thought Starro's intent was to have the League fighting amongst themselves while he could pick them off without suspicion (he is using Superman's body, after all). Bringing Batman in was just someone else to point the finger at. Starro probably thought the rest of the League would be too busy being suspicious of Batman about the attempts on Micron, Aquagirl and Warhawk (Terry was the only one around for the latter two events, making him seem the more likely suspect) to notice that Superman was doing anything odd.
 
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SuperBat

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I thought Starro's intent was to have the League fighting amongst themselves while he could pick them off without suspicion (he isusing Superman's body, after all). Bringing Batman in was just someone else to point the finger at. Starro probably thought the rest of the League would be too busy being suspicious of Batman about the attempts on Micron, Aquagirl and Warhawk (Terry was the only one around for the latter two events, making him seem the more likely suspect) to notice that Superman was doing anything odd.
Right. I thought it just sort of explained itself. In fact, when Batman exposes him, he says, "the one person I thought I could trust." That leads me to believe that Starro assumed Batman would be on his side no matter what. Terry watched Aquagirl's attempted murder, so while Superman laid the blame on him, he probably assumed that Terry was either not smart enough to figure it out or too loyal to suspect Superman. He was probably hoping Batman would start convicting the other Leaguers.
 

pixellj

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If that is the case, I feel the plot still failed to underscore this. Considering how many people in this thread alone are at the worst thinking the plot is 'dumb' to at the best confused about the real story, the plot didn't do it's job. Making a viewer think is one thing, requiring the viewer to fill in the holes is another.

I really enjoyed the JLU/ BB crossover (chronos), I guess i was hoping the BB/JLU would've been the same high quality.
 

Toddman

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Did the starfish control what he ate, or how often he went to the bathroom? Nope.

Remember "The Late Mr. Kent"? Supes doesn't need to eat in the DCAU. Which means he doesn't have to poop either. Which means one less thing for Starro to worry about. (A good thing, too, considering Starro was sabotaging its own plans for world domination...:D)


Toddman
 

SuperBat

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If that is the case, I feel the plot still failed to underscore this. Considering how many people in this thread alone are at the worst thinking the plot is 'dumb' to at the best confused about the real story, the plot didn't do it's job. Making a viewer think is one thing, requiring the viewer to fill in the holes is another.
I still don't get it. I was never bewildered at all. I'm aware of b.t.'s admission that the show was a mess, but I'm not trying to make excuses for it. I was simply never confused. I think if I hadn't read the fan reaction, I might never have realized there was any discrepancy at all...
 

Alph

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You know, I think I just thought of a way for Superman's actions in "The Call" to make sense. It's probably been thought of before, but I'll mention it anyway.

As someone mentioned earlier, Starro probably wasn't controlling Superman 24/7. Instead, I think he only controlled Supes for brief periods of time whenever he needed to make Superman do something (like killing Warhawk). Why would Starro only control Superman temporarily? Because Superman has a very resilient mind, as seen in the JL episode "The Secret Society". Controlling Superman probably took alot of effort. Think of it as being similar to how Joker controlled Tim Drake in RotJ.

When Starro wasn't controlling Superman, Superman would have no recollection that he's sometimes being controlled (much like Tim Drake in RotJ). Of course, Starro must have been able to burrow into Supermans body in order for Superman not to notice him (which also explains why Lois, if she's still alive and in a relationship with Clark, wouldn't notice Starro), since he would have been very noticable if he were constantly stuck to the outside of Superman's body.

Superman, naturally, would learn about the things he did under Starro's control (and he would assume someone else did them) and get Batman to help find out who the traitor in the league is. Then he meets Terry, and brings him to JLU HQ. Since Starro probably can't constantly control Superman (because of Superman's aforementioned resilient mind), he'd have no way to stop Superman from eventually going to Batman for help. Once Terry figured out what was going down, Starro took control of Superman (which, like the Joker controlling Tim Drake, Starro probably found easier and easier to do over time) and tried killing Terry.

After Terry violently severed the link between Starro and Superman, this must have temporarily scrambled Superman's short term memory. Hence why he could remember Terry, but not the fact that he had called Terry for help.

I think that covers everything...
 

Maxie Zeus

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You know, I think I just thought of a way for Superman's actions in "The Call" to make sense. It's probably been thought of before, but I'll mention it anyway.

As someone mentioned earlier, Starro probably wasn't controlling Superman 24/7. Instead, I think he only controlled Supes for brief periods of time

Oh God, Superman thought, as he woke with a taste like a dirty dishrag shoved into his mouth. Another alcoholic blackout. That meant there'd also have been another night of fires and explosions and dead JLU members. Naturally, he'd have gotten drunk off his ass at not being able to stop all of it. Or had he been getting drunk before these disasters had occurred? He couldn't remember either way, though it had been going on for almost two years now. Surely someone would have mentioned something if he'd been knocking back pink gins and Harvey Wallbangers and then knocking over skyscrapers.

He sighed, and reflected that there was an awful lot about these blackouts he didn't understand. He wasn't doing his drinking at home, or else there surely would have been an empty tequila bottle or two next to the bed. He pinched the bridge of his nose and vaguely wondered if he had a favorite bar or was pickling his liver in a different saloon each night. He dearly hoped no one had ever asked him about making a "barfly" when he was in his cups.

Well, best to see how crappy this day was going to be. He absent-mindedly arched his back and hiked his pajama bottoms up, then rolled off the bed and shambled into the bathroom. The figure that looked back at him from the mirror was fuzzy, and he wasn't sure if it was because the glass was dirty or because his eyelashes were stuck together. He tried to turn on the cold water but only succeeded in smashing the faucet through the back wall. No matter: a geyser of cold water struck him square in the face, which is what he needed. He let it run for a few moments, then with a grunt heat-visioned the pipe shut. He wiped the dripping water from his face, squinted into the mirror and--

"HOLY [censored] [censored], THERE'S A GIANT STARFISH STUCK TO MY CHEST!"
 

Alph

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Oh God, Superman thought, as he woke with a taste like a dirty dishrag shoved into his mouth. Another alcoholic blackout. That meant there'd also have been another night of fires and explosions and dead JLU members.

I imagine Starro would be a bit more discrete than that. Superman does sleep, after all. It wouldn't be difficult for Starro to take control of Supes while he's sleeping, do whatever it is he does (while avoiding detection by others), and then go back to bed.

"HOLY [censored] [censored], THERE'S A GIANT STARFISH STUCK TO MY CHEST!"
As I said, Starro must have been able to burrow itself into Superman's body, until provocation by Terry caused it to resurface. Otherwise we have to assume that no one ever saw Superman without his shirt on for over two years (or noticed a bulge in his shirt, for that matter).
 

Toddman

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As I said, Starro must have been able to burrow itself into Superman's body, until provocation by Terry caused it to resurface. Otherwise we have to assume that no one ever saw Superman without his shirt on for over two years (or noticed a bulge in his shirt, for that matter).

Now if somebody could just explain what those spiky things were that jutted out from Superman's chest when Starro was first provoked...


Toddman
 

Alph

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Now if somebody could just explain what those spiky things were that jutted out from Superman's chest when Starro was first provoked...


Toddman
Probably some strange ability of Starro's species.
 

Maxie Zeus

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I imagine Starro would be a bit more discrete than that. Superman does sleep, after all. It wouldn't be difficult for Starro to take control of Supes while he's sleeping, do whatever it is he does (while avoiding detection by others), and then go back to bed.

As I said, Starro must have been able to burrow itself into Superman's body, until provocation by Terry caused it to resurface. Otherwise we have to assume that no one ever saw Superman without his shirt on for over two years (or noticed a bulge in his shirt, for that matter).

Sigh. I forgot that one should never attempt humor in this forum ...
 

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