Are all the "fan moments" ruining JLU?

Christopher Glennon

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GMahler said:
JLU is a completely different show than any other one in the DCAU. People expecting uber-serious dramas should go watch their B:TAS sets (that's what I do). When I turn on my TV every Saturday at 8:30 PM I turn my brain off. I'm not suggesting everyone else do this, but just try it. No pre-conceived expectations, nothing. Just say to yourself: "I want to have a good time" and I guarantee you'll have a good time. I used to despise Teen Titans until I realized that if I didn't think about plot holes and how it was departing from the comic versions then I would enjoy it more. And guess what? I did.
That's really true. I started liking Teen Titans the day I stopped calling Beast Boy "Gar".

I'm a comic book fan first and a cartoon fan second. I've been reading comic books for over 10 years, so I do LOVE the fan moments. I nearly squealed when I saw Hal Jordan.

However, I would trade all the "unlimited" members if it meant getting my Flash back. There are things I've come to expect from the DCAU. I want them to get back to the Lex Luthor plot and the government and I expect them to use the characterization they created for Hawkgirl rather than turn her into her comic book counterpart.

All fans have their degree of fickleness. Seeing Hal Jordan was one of my favorite moments of JLU season 1, but at the same time, I like John and want more of John because he's the Green Lantern we've been seeing all this time.

Since this is "Unlimited" and is following what BTAS, STAS, BB, and whatever else built on while at the same time given us an ever-expanding DCAU, there should be a balance between fan moments and continuing what we've been seeing.
 

Drizzt2218

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Derek Powers:

You ued to post way back in the day, didn't you? I recognize your name, and if I recall, we used to all have some fun discussions on Batman Beyond. (Oh, and Powers is one my favorite villains -- I always wished he'd returned sometime during BB's third season -- though Ascension was a great finish to the character.) I saw a familiar name, and felt the need to respond.

I'd like to add that my biggest indicators of whether a cartoon is working or not would be the little kids. They're the target audience, if not for Timm and co., then at least CN and WB. They're the ones who buy the toys, t-shirts, games, cereal, etc.; and as I've said, they are all big fans of B:TAS, S:TAS, BB, Static Shock (whether you want to view it as a DC show or not), Teen Titans, and Justice League. The 4 year old considers Batman Beyond his favorite series, and Terry his favorite character. The 3 year old loves Superman. Even with certain adult themes, all these shows keep them captivated, and inspire their imagination and sense of wonder.

It's not an insult to JLU to say that the show isn't doing that for them -- it's just a fact. They often (even the 8 year old) find themselves confused by the cameos and certain plot elements, which in turn make them annoyed and less eager to watch the show. All 3 of them fell asleep during The Greatest Story Never Told, the first time that's ever happened during Justice League --they usually pass out right after. And whether you think it was in poor taste or not, the 8 year old was disgusted by Atom being in WW's boobs, and being a little girl who thinks of WW as the ultimate kick-butt female, I can't say I blame her. We can discuss JLU to the death and we can all turn into complete fanboys doing it, but the very fact that the 3 little kids in the house find JLU to be the first Timm-show they have mixed feelings about tells me that something isn't working with this show.

I'm looking forward to these next 13 episodes though, and I'm optimistic that the series will only get better.

--Larry
 

Revelator

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[QUOTED: Drizzt2218]
I'd like to add that my biggest indicators of whether a cartoon is working or not would be the little kids....

The fact that Batman Beyond was requested because the suits felt BTAS/TNBA wasn't reaching enough kids is a fair indication that the DCAU series have often appealed to bigger kids even more than smaller ones, and they can be a lucrative target audience as well. Back in the Justice League days Matt Wilson was busy telling us that kids weren't so gung-ho on it. And now you're telling us that kids loved JL but JLU is losing them. Who shall we believe? And to be as blunt as possible, saying that JLU doesn't work just because your kids don't dig it is hardly a conclusive argument. Your family's reaction is worthwhile in itself, but is it representative of the nationwide norm? Does it explain why the finale had terrific ratings? And are you really surprised that a 4 year old wouldn't get much out of the show? As I had to point out earlier, beyond a certain point the experiences of isolated individuals have to make way for the bigger picture. We can debate on tit-for-tat terms endlessly--I know several children who immensely enjoy JLU--but if we're to ask if the show is losing its appeal, we have to go beyond the individual reactions and just saying, "oh, if my kids like it something must be wrong." Tell your kids to watch Teen Titans instead if they're bored. Maybe when they're a bit older they might like JLU more. Who knows?
 

paulie

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Crimson said:
JLU has never stayed with me the way most episodes of JUSTICE LEAGUE did.

This is EXACTLY what I've been feeling, too. I don't think there's a reason I can nail down, either...it's not the cameos, it's not the 30-min episodes...it just is.

Crimson said:
I've made my peace with JLU; I've lowered my expecations and, as such, I can get moderate entertainment value out of it. JUSTICE LEAGUE was a show I loved; JLU is a show I watch. Sometimes it annoys me, sometimes it bores me, and sometimes it entertains me. But, with the sole exception of FTMWHE, JLU has never stayed with me the way most episodes of JUSTICE LEAGUE did. With JLU, I usually forget about it even before I'm finished watching it. I also still inherently dislike the new format; it is essentially an anthology which are, almost by nature, wildly uneven.

Thanks for posting this--after TOAFT, this is absolutely where I'm at. And after reading (and participating) in the debate about JLU, I think it's the best approach.
 

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I remember you, Larry, from the old bat chat rooms. I went by Bort. I still talk to Kenshin every so often.

I don't think Derek Powers posted a long time ago, i believe he's currently about 15, so 4 years ago (or more), would make him 11, and he probably wouldn't be making the most thoughtful posts at that age :).

I do agree with a lot of what you said, but i also agree with people who are just able to enjoy this show. I know some cameos, but not all, and for the ones i don't, i attribute it to some DC hero, think it's gotta be cool for others to see, and move on. And then i'll usually come on here to see who that character was...you know this is how marvel used to get people into comics by havng random cameos and having people go buy those comics then.

I did like JL season 2 better than JLU, but just like STAS, TNBA, and BB, it got cut too short. A shame too as the writers were just hitting their stride, giving us gems like twilight and star crossed.

I have faith in timm & co., and i have a feeling next season's season finale is going to blow us all away.

And hey, if we're lucky, we'll get ANOTHER season of JLU, and hopefully by then they'll have mastered the art of how to do this, and almost every show will be perfect.

My only wish is that they'd do the "near apocalypse of '09" with Ra's. Come on, b.t., next season will be after batman begins is out, ask if you can just use Ra's, we all want him!!!!!

Enough fan whining for now :).
 

Drizzt2218

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Bort! Man, awesome to see you still around! I was just talking to Kenshin the other night--I don't often see him around, but we keep in minimal contact, too. I could swear that there was a Derek Powers back in the day, though. Or maybe someone named Blight? They're the same character, so I could be confusing the two. But there was a Powers fan back then, I know that much. Thanks for posting, I'm glad to recognize another name.
 

RAINMAN

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Drizzt2218 said:
I'm not sure how many here will remember me. I used to post under the name "Larry" a long time ago, both on the old WB Board and way back when this board first started. I even remember the circumstances under which James first created this board. I re-registered awhile ago, but with most of the old guard gone, I haven't been too inspired to get back into posting. However, for the first time in a long time, I finally feel like I have something to say.

Let me start by stating that I am nothing if not a die-hard fan of these shows. I grew up on B:TAS...these are the creators who inspired me to base my career off them, and become a writer, with an eye towards animation. It's easy to tear stuff down, but that's not my intent here. My intent is to be constructive, and politely raise my issues with the direction the "Timmverse" such as it were, has taken.

In the introduction to the screenplay for "Return of the Joker," Paul Dini began by writing this:

"When producers Alan Burnett, Glen Murakami, Bruce Timm and I began developing Batman Beyond in early 1998, we made a conscious decision to downplay much of the lore established in our first animated Batman series. It would have been easy to craft Beyond completely around elements from Bruce Wayne's life, which had resurfaced to confront his young pupil Terry McGinnis, nearly forty years later. After all, who wouldn't want to see our new Uncaped Crusader lock horns with the youthful clone of Catwoman or match wits with a supercomputer programmed by the original Riddler? The notion of going that route for fifty-two episodes was very tempting, which was all the more reason not to do it."

I can't help but feel this sort of edict has been abandoned in JLU. There's no doubt, with apologies for singling him out, fans like GMahler wouldn't have been thrilled by seeing the Son of Man-Bat; but the creators wisely recognized that such fan servicing would detract from the series, and avoided it. The same can be said for B:TAS and S:TAS as well, which focused on simplifying the broad histories of its characters, crafting great stories that could be enjoyed by anyone. It seems like JLU has forgotten what made these shows so magical to begin with.

Though "The Once and Future Thing" is what set this post in motion, my feeling of discontent really started back with "Hawk & Dove," and continued through episodes like "The Greatest Story Never Told." A huge team is an interesting idea in concept, but has basically served to only give fans a moment where they can go "Oh my god! They used Dr. Light 2!" These characters have added nothing to the stories, and in certain cases, having to suspend our disbelief that they wouldn't be called in to help in a situation has hampered the story. Few of them have had any speaking roles, fewer of them personality traits that couldn't be substituted for the established 7 members of the League.

An episode like "Dark Heart" becomes distracting for the non-fanboy viewers when all these characters are around and we aren't so much as given a name for any of them. Who's the guy on the winged horse? How does a cowboy with a six shooter contribute anything to this conflict? If one looks at the show and tries to see it from the perspective of someone not immersed in DC lore, it falls apart as a confusing mess most of the time. A couple episodes have handled the "fan stuff," well, in particular "Ultimatum" and "Wake The Dead." "For The Man Who Has Everything" was absolutely brilliant.

But "The Greatest Story Never Told" was one of the worst things they've ever put to screen. Booster Gold's personality is nearly the same as The Flash's, except that he's a "new" character with no history, no viewer recognition, and frankly, comes off as an annoyingly horny jerk the entire episode. This would be fine if he learned a lesson at the end--but he doesn't. He gets a happy ending, with no character growth. And then he's never seen again in another episode.

I won't even discuss how crude it was to have a scene where Wonder Woman sticks Atom in-between her boobs, or the gratuitous cleavage shots which result. Maybe funny for most male fans, but from the 8-year-old little girl watching the episode with me, all it did was make her say "eewww" and recognize it, perhaps not as being sexist, but even for her it struck her as being downright wrong. I watch JLU with an 8 year old girl, a 4 year old boy, and a 3 year old boy. All of them enjoy Justice League, and the little kids love the dvd sets for B:TAS and S:TAS. The 4 year old watches all my old tapes of Batman Beyond, and cites Terry as being his favorite character. Lately, all of them have been tuning out of JLU, calling it "boring." If the shows are aimed in the very least at capturing the attention of small children, I can say it's failing miserably compared to Teen Titans. And the thing is, it SHOULDN'T be failing. There is no reason for this, and I don't think any of us would want this show to fail. But all the fan servicing is killing the series.

Which brings us to "The Once and Future Thing," arguably the biggest disappointment to come out of these brilliant creators. The story is a mess. It's all over the place. The first half begins with Chronos as the villain, but quickly shuffles him aside for a completely pointless western romp. The western heroes introduced have little personality besides an occasional one-liner, and Jonah Hex is completely wasted. Why do we care about the Native American sheriff and his conflict at the end? We don't. We have no attachment to him. Why are there robot dinosaurs instead of real dinosaurs? Why does the villain have a winged horse at the end? It's mindless, and the story falls apart under any kind of scrutiny. The creators have peppered the series with flirting between Batman and Wonder Woman as well, but with no payoff, that too is distracting in the teaser. And then we have Part Two.

Terry McGuiness had 52 episodes and a DTV. This is more than S:TAS ever got. We haven't seen his character in a while. Fans have long wondered what would happen between a meeting between him and the original Batman in his prime. A time travel story that goes into the BB timeline is SPECIFICALLY tailored to the Batman mythology, or else there'd be no reason to go into this future at all. And yet the first thing that happens is a subplot between Green Lantern and Warhawk that doesn't go anywhere besides a couple one-liners, a villain who has suddenly grown crazy and insanely powerful with no explaination, and a gang of Jokerz that have somehow become powerful enough to destroy the entire League, with vaguely defined powers at bshows no interest in how things turned out. Terry shows no interest in seeing his mentor in his prime; and worse, besides being relegated to a few lines of dialogue, he spends most of the episode being beaten senselessly before he is needlessly killed at the end, and brought back off-screen after everything is fixed. The story even avoids so much as naming BB as the future of the DCU, by casting doubt over this future due to Batman and John "remembering" what happened. In short, a story that should have brought about some massive character development or at least had a real point to it, becomes another mindless romp with no sense of consequence. When time falls apart at the end, it seems like a way to wrap up the story, not a natural conclusion. Batman's cruel actions at the end are treated like a joke, and not a horrible way to dispose of the villain. And Hal Jordan's cameo is both pointless and confusing. Who is he? Why is he there? Worse, if John is gone, why is Warhawk still there? It detracts from the story, not enhances it.

A lot of us are Joss Whedon fans. So let's go with this hypothetical. Imagine in a year or two, a new spin-off is launched. And the series does an episode where Buffy and the gang travel into the past, because Ethan Rayne is trying to kill Angel right after he's been ensouled. We haven't seen the Angel character in a long time, and this story is specifically tailored to him. But instead, the first thing that happens is Buffy learns she is descended from Darla! Then we focus on Ethan some, as he recruits the vampires to help him stop the Scoobies, and empowers them with new magical abilities. Then we focus on the Scoobies misadventures in time, and a lot of pointless fighting. Angel spends the entire episode getting his butt kicked, before he's actually dusted! But it's okay, because the Scoobies stop Ethan from ever traveling back in time, thus preventing the entire story from ever happening. Does that sound like a very satisfying episode to you? No? Me neither. And yet that's exactly what JLU did to Terry and Batman Beyond.

I'm not trying to anger anyone by posting this. I'm not trying to insult this crew, and all their hard work. I hold nothing but respect and admiration towards them. All I want to do is generate some discussion on these issues, and perhaps raise a few valid points about where JLU could be different. Thanks for reading through this, and I look forward to any and all responses.

--Larry


Good point. I think the biggest problem is how things are being handle. It seem like they are just rushing things or forceing them which make it end up as being halfbacked. The only giant size team ep`s I thougth was needed was the return and that because amazo defeeted the original 7, so they needed all the help they could get going againts a god like being. As for merdo I don`t know if he stronger then amazo, then again he barly got enough screen time. They were so busy whit BG they forgot about the main villain of the ep. speacking of BG I see him as flash from the future too. How can a char get CD in 30 mim is beyond me. Any CD he got in the ep`s was lost once he walkoff into the sunset whit the girl he ben drooling over while marking ebated man. However, I would say BG is the worst of the new faces. That belong to vixen. Her sterotype personalty was so annoying that it made BG look like silver. Now that she invole in this pointless love traingle look like I gonna have to put up whit her more then I need to. I don`t expect every char to have bats or supes type personalty but I don`t want them to have annoying personalties either. I also don`t expect every eps to be some big epic and ground breaking, just good,fun and watchabile. Sadly JLU only had one ep like that.
 

Captain Clown

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I'm still reeling from the fact that people are longing for the good ol' days of JL... the DCAU bottomed out with JL season 1, as far as I'm concerned (tho even that was reasonably cool) and even season 2 was variable and heading towards staleness and repetition.

The funny thing is, I think people wouldn't be quite so put off if the "extraneous" heroes really were just anonymous soldiers. I think it bugs people to think there's a joke out there that they're not getting.

I'm one of these people that don't read the comics. I like the show and I think folks that see all the background characters as nothing more but nods to comics geeks are not fully grasping what they add to the show. But that's JMO, and I think other people have covered this better than I have...

Final note: I really do love the format of the show. It's even more daring than the 1-hour minimovie concept, and the results have generally been better.
 

Trevor Balena

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Captain Clown said:
The funny thing is, I think people wouldn't be quite so put off if the "extraneous" heroes really were just anonymous soldiers. I think it bugs people to think there's a joke out there that they're not getting.
Exactly. If you know who the characters are, then great. You probably get a kick out of seeing them. But if you don't, then just think of them as foot soldiers until they end up getting spotlights. Think of it this way: if the episode doesn't tell you anything about them, it's because you don't need to know anything about them to enjoy the episode.

In my case, I'm a long-time comics fan, and I know all of the background characters. However, after a few episodes of JLU (I think it was around "This Little Piggy") I stopped being thrilled by cameos, and after that I was able to judge the episodes more objectively, I feel. Any you know what? I've enjoyed every episode (some more than others), even episodes like "Dark Heart", which many see as nothing more than cameo-fests. And I didn't enjoy them because of the cameos, but because of the actual merits of the episodes.

It's like after "Ultimatum" aired, people were whining endlessly about how the episode sucked because they didn't know who Amanda Waller and Maxwell Lord were. Well, guess what? Lord was, in all likelihood, a one-shot character, who was mainly there to move the plot along, and Waller was supposed to be mysterious. The writers gave you all the information you needed to enjoy the episode, but because other people seemed to know more about those characters, some people felt like they were left out of the loop.

If those people had been posting back in the BTAS days, they would have complained at the end of "Off Balance" that they didn't know who Ra' al Ghul was, or at the end of "Tools of the Trade" that they didn't know who Darkseid was.

Whew.

End rant.
 

DerekPowers

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Drizzt2218 said:
Bort! Man, awesome to see you still around! I was just talking to Kenshin the other night--I don't often see him around, but we keep in minimal contact, too. I could swear that there was a Derek Powers back in the day, though. Or maybe someone named Blight? They're the same character, so I could be confusing the two. But there was a Powers fan back then, I know that much. Thanks for posting, I'm glad to recognize another name.
I WAS around back then, and i'm NOT 15. :D

There was another poster named Blight too, but he hasnt been around lately. I believe at the time HE may have been like 15, so that could be where the confusion is at.

Anyway Drizzt, here's an interesting point. I too feel that kid reaction is a good way to grasp how a series is doing. I worked as a camp counselor over the summer, and this was when JLU first started airing. I'd always ask them which show was better, JL or JLU, and they almost always said JLU. I'd ask why, and they'd say because there are more heros. I'd ofcourse disagree, but they'd still never agree with me, and even tended to criticize the original JL show. So who knows.

In theory all good art, and i do consider quality cartoons 'art', should be able to touch people of all ages. Good art has no age boundaries. The way i loved BTAS when i was a little kid, I enjoy it now. I liked all the following series for the same reasons i liked the original btas. I liked season 2 of JL the same way, even though i was much older. I find i still like cartoons, and they are USUALLY the same ones that most kids like, like PPG, Samurai Jack, JL, JLU, Fosters, etc. I loved the new Masters of the Univese show. And if you'll notice, good cartoons usually have a following of both kids and adults. They, in theory, have no real boundaries. If its bad, then both kids and adults will react the same way to the same bad elements in it. And that is how i'm responding to JLU. And, despite what my camp kids said over the summer, i dont think JLU is as good as JL.

But i've said this before, but I'll restate it. I think part of the reason my camp kids liked JLU better, as they stated, was because there are more heros. And that makes sense. If you LOOK at JLU, it is really quite stunning, ESPECIALLY the shots with a crap load of heros in them. EVERYONE, it seems, responds to bright colors and simple shapes, especially kids (look at childrens books, especially the really young ones). One a purely visual level, JLU is the most like abstract art, imo, because you are bombarded with simple shapes and bold colors, or, as we know them, Bruce Timm's designs. It opperates on a really primal level, i think, and i as much as i have a problem with the writing and characterizations on the show, i am still dumb-founded about how much i like those shots. It just works in a really weird way that i've yet to nail down. It has somethng to do with the initial response one has to shapes and colors, along with the mythology involved with 'comic book' superheros. Taking the often 'corny' designs of b-list heros, and making them look good, from a basic color and form pespective, allowing the viewer to participate in making them look cool. I dont know, i'm rambling, but like i've said, its something i ponder when i watch the show, and i'll nail it down eventually.

Sooooo, thats not to say a show can be caried by those visuals. I think the weak story elements and weak dialogue is enough to make people, kids especially, loose interest mid-way through and episode, despite the visuals. The visuals may be just enough, though, to sell crap loads of re-painted toys. But imagine if they utalized JLU to it's fullest potential, oh just imagine. Imagine if the story and writing and dialogue were BTAS or STAS quality. Imagine if it tailored itself to those beautifull compositions of colorful heros, creating new and interesting shots rooted in stories we were truely invested in, rather than just sticking them in the backgrounds of shallow stories, oh just imagine. And thats why i'm hopefull. And we'll find out soon enough....

EDIT:

Oh, i forgot to mention light. I think that the designs and colorfull compositions in JLU are powerfull, visually, not just because of color and form, but light as well. If you'll notice, pretty much ALL the heros (and villians for that matter) on JLU have some kind of SHINE to them. All of them. Not only do they have a 'shine', but they all have lights and darks. They have SHADOWS or shaded areas defining thier forms. Bruce Timm's design theory seems to have shine and shadow built into it inherently. And shiny areas and shaded areas all indicate LIGHTING in the situation. Light plays an important part in the designs. And we, as humans, seem to respond VERY strongly to light, in art and life. Artists, from Vermeer to Edward Hopper, from Suerat to Alex Katz, all utalize light in very effective ways, and it's a big reason why people respond so much to their work, ESPECIALLY Vermeer, the master of light. Notice how so many people LOVE impressionist art? Its all about color and light.

We also respond to light in everyday life. I have a theory that it's becaue of the sun and the sun is vital to all life processes on earth. Ever wonder why people like gold so much (besides it being worth a lot)? I have a theory that it's because it reminded ancient people of the sun. Notice how there are so many sun gods and sun symbolizom in mythology and art and religion? I think people have a connection to the sun, and when things mimick the sun, they really respond to it. PEOPLE LIKE SHINEY OBJECTS!!

Notice how you or people you are with respond to neon lights or lighted signs next time you see one. Throw bold colors on top of it and they respond even more. AND throw bold forms on top of that, like simple human shapes, and they really respond. And that, in a nut shell, imo, is what is unique about JLU and is why i feel it has the most potential energy of any Timmverse how. It is all about color, light, and form.

anyway, yeah, i can REALLY go off, and i hope what i said makes any kind of sense. But yea, Drizzt, I was around back then ;), and im fairly sure i remember you. peace.
 
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witness

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Wow. After reading all of these wonderful posts, I'm finally understanding what I think of JLU. My response to your question would be a no. I don't think all of the "fanservice" is what the problem with JLU is.

My perspective is mainly from the DCAU, but I have a few trade comics (Rock of Ages, Technis Imperative, D.C. 1 Million, Underworld Unleashed) so I can get a more comprehensive feel than someone who is just coming from the point of I'm not a comic fan.

I personally think that what is difficult for this show is that they have never tried this kind of format before. They have never had to focus on a whole lot of characters at once. JL's first season was sketchy. There were very good episodes and some that weren't so good. The second season was better. Now they've had to go backwards sort of. They've returned to a 22 minute format. This is the reason that they cannot give as much focus to so many different characters. They're trying to relearn how to do a good job of telling a story. Once again, this season is a little rough. (I personally have enjoyed most of this season.) Some of the episodes have felt rushed. They do have their work cut out for them.

However, I'm really not happy about OAFT 2, because it just seemed like a total mess. I guess it should have just had another 22 minutes to flesh it out a little more. I didn't tape it, so I don't know when I'll be able to watch it again. I am a big fan of Batman Beyond, and came in with high expectations. It just felt a little flat to me, that's all. After reading some posts at the official talkback, I've come to understand the episode a little more. I just didn't like it as much as I could have. I also really wonder if this episode, they were thumbing their noses at the suits of WB for making them have to create BB in the first place.

I'm sure that next season will be better than this one. Hopefully, the episodes won't feel as rushed, and they won't have any stories that look like the aftermath of any natural disaster either. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Oh, by the way, Drizzit, yes there once was a poster named Blight as well as Derekpowers. Don't know if he/she is still around or not.
 

Drizzt2218

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DP and Witness: Great posts! I can agree about the idea that perhaps these first 13 episodes have been so rough/uneven because these guys are trying to find their footing again, and certainly, JLU isn't the easiest show to write/craft. Like most series, there are episodes that have done a great job and others that have been some of the worst stories told in the Timmverse, and I think that's part of the problem; there is a real uneven quality not seen since the early days of B:TAS. There's nothing mediocre about JLU, it's either really great or really horrible. Who could argue that "Wake The Dead" was a great episode, for instance? Also, I love the designs, but don't forget to credit the brilliant James Tucker with his share of the work alongside Bruce Timm. I would never try to take away from all the hard work put into the show by these creators, but I can't help but feel, and I'm glad I'm not the only here who feels this way, that there is room for improvement in the series. I am very much looking forward to the next 13 episodes, and I do think we'll see a more even quality emerge within episodes 14-26.

--Larry
 

raynos

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DerekPowers said:
Taking the often 'corny' designs of b-list heros, and making them look good, from a basic color and form pespective, allowing the viewer to participate in making them look cool.
Yes, I really like the character designs this season. They are cool.

I wasn't sold on the new format of JLU, but I guess it's OK. At least now, I'd love to see some episodes on the new heroes. I'm actually considering this season as easing into the new style for season 4, which looks good. Yum.
 

b.t.

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one point to consider:

going all the way back to the justice society comics in the '40's, the "superhero-team" concept has always been the very definition of "fan-service"....having all your favorite heroes teamed-up in one supergroup is the ultimate example of "wouldn't it be cool if...."

so, featuring all those extra heroes and nifty cameos, whether they're episode-centered spotlight appearances or "red-shirt" wallpaper walk-ons, is just an extension of that same basic premise...

saying JLU is guilty of blatant fan-service is therefore kinda redundant, seems to me...

as for BATMAN BEYOND, though it was in part a continuation of BTAS and TNBA, the series centered on a brand new character (terry), therefore we felt it was very important to give him his own group of "rogues gallery" villains, and not just have him fight bruce wayne's old ones....so yes, we did avoid taking the easy "fan-service" way out there....however, having barbara grow up to be the new "commissioner gordon" was a TOTAL "fan-service" bit, but it felt like the logical thing to do...it gave terry his own unique "hero/cop" dynamic, distinctly different than bruce and jim gordon's, and also allowed us to utilise a pre-existing supporting character from BTAS in a fresh role....

just my two cents....
 

sKorpia

Sweet Little Owl
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
1,666
Location
Treehouse
DP, I agree with you on one thing. What really hampers JLU has mostly been the writing for me. Not just the dialogue. The way that the story is laid out, the storyboarding, the camera work (or lack therof) all could use some work. There haven't been very many episodes that actually felt like they fit into a 22-minute span of time. It's either a 5-minute story that's stretched or a 32-minute story that's compressed. Each comes with its own host of resulting plot issues. Some reveals or story elements could have been more effectively shot, heightening tension and suspicion instead of making the viewer wonder, "Erm, am I supposed to be getting something here?" The fight scenes, though uneven, have shown a bit of "mixing it up" with the types of camera shots and effects used.

On the issue of light, however, I have to disagree. I mourn the loss of change in lighting. Whenever I think of JLU, it's all very shiny -- plastic-looking. It reminds me of Onegai Teacher, where everyone has that unnatural sheen to them. I miss shadows on the face, indicating contours. I miss detail. I miss contrast! Even the nighttime is bright in JLU. Maybe it's just personal preference. It's just . . . so plastic feeling.

I tune in to see if anything's changed. There've been improvements. For the life of me though, nothing seems to stick with JLU or JL. For the heroes I know, I get that giddy "eek!" moment when I see Black Canary or Hal Jordan (and I'm not much of a DC comic fan either), but those moments don't make up for what could be improved in presentation. I just end up walking away with a "meh" feeling.
 

Sue

Hawk Groupie
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
1,806
Location
Baltimore
Come to think of it, these "fan service" complaints are rather strange. If JLU really did cater to the fans' every wish, why complain? As for as cameos and in-jokes go, I don't see any harm in it.
 

efumf

Behold the DCAnimatedUniverse!
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
768
Location
New Gotham
Why is it whenever a pointless, silly thread like this is made just so trolls can crap on JLU, it stays open for days, but when a negative thread is made about "The Batman", it's closed instantly?

I'm not going to read all this thread because my IQ is low enough as it is after plowing through Supremus's post history ;) - But you "fans" need to get over yourselves. If you don't read the comics, then you're going to miss some in-jokes when watching a superhero show - it's inevitable. So either open yourself up to another creative medium (one that JLU relies on as source material, I might add) or just accept that you're ignorant and enjoy all the colourful heroes in the background as just that. You don't need to know every facet of every character to enjoy an episode of JLU. In fact, this show appeals to children perhaps better than any DCAU show, and everyone knows kids don't read comics. So I guess the creators are doing something right.
 

Road to Gotham

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
2,809
I love JLU. It's a FUN way to spend a half-hour.

All the cool cameos of 2nd and 3rd stringers. I love those guys & gals.

Maybe the story lines don't always make sense.
But, So What!
Relax, put your feet up. Have some munchies and let your imagination run wild
with all these colorful characters.

:D
 

Revelator

Loathsome spotted reptile
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Messages
3,397
Location
San Francisco, CA
The only people who complain about fan service are fans angry that other fans besides themselves are being serviced. As far as I'm concerned they can whine into perpetuity: JL season one was legitmately whine-worthy, but the show has been getting better ever since.
 

Knight

Emerald Knight
Joined
May 2, 2001
Messages
7,748
Location
Earth
Love the "fan service" you will get no complaints from me. Keep it coming.
 

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